[Debunked] A liner or freighter pollutes as much as 1 million cars...and 1000 tractors? Really ?

Warming and Climate Change: causes, consequences, analysis ... Debate on CO2 and other greenhouse gas.
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Christophe » 19/11/18, 15:42

ENERC wrote:Some figures for a cruise liner with data collected on board:
- 4000 customers
- 1000 crew (sailors, catering, animation, laundry, maintenance, ... in 24 / 24)
- 50 tons of fuel oil / day at berth
- 150 tons of fuel / day cruising (24 hours of navigation)

If we look at the dock, 50 tons give about 50 * 10,64 * (40% yield) = 212 MWh, or 42 kWh per day per person.
This is huge compared to 4000 / 365 = 11 kWh per day for an average home. (pools and desalinization surely).


a) Do you have the source of these numbers?

b) We must not compare the luxury (liner) and the (more or less) useful (cargo, car, house ...) ... and we must compare it all in primary energy (the fuel is one, not electricity).

What are the 4000 kWh that you retain for the average home? If it's electricity, as I suppose, it's not good ...

In short, we should compare these 42 kWh consumption of a luxurious hotel (ie something that provides the same benefits: sauna, spa, swimming pool, large kitchen ...) ... the difference will certainly be much less important than with a standard home ...

ENERC wrote:The liner has a cruising speed of about 21 knots (40 km / h). It travels about 1000 km per day.
The consumption of displacement per passenger is therefore:
(150-50) * 1000 / 5000 / 1000 * 100 = 2 liters to 100.
And 3 liters at 100 including consumption at the quay (lighting, air conditioning, kitchens, laundry, desalination of sea water, ...)
Or 3,75 l / 100 excluding crew members.


c) That's it: it's not so polluting that it finally! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

We arrive at the same orders of magnitude as the planes (but 40km / h VS 900 km / h ... so a plane is still much better, but there is no spa in an airplane ... : Mrgreen: ) : Cheesy:
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by ENERC » 25/11/18, 08:45

Christophe wrote:a) Do you have the source of these numbers?

It was on a poster presented during a technical visit during a cruise in 2009. We had the privilege of visiting the floors below the waterline to see the engines, the desalination plant and the wastewater treatment plant.
My memory seems to be correct considering this Guardian article:
But marine pollution analysis in Germany and Brussels said that such a large ship would probably be burned at least a few times a year, and more often than not. more particulate emissions than thousands of London nozzles.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... on-problem

They also explained to us the sorting of garbage cans and the dumping of organic waste off the coast : Oops:
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by moinsdewatt » 25/11/18, 22:27

Fortunately, the future is replacing heavy fuel with gas:

Korea wants to order 140 LNG ships by 2025

the 23 / 11 / 2018 lemarin.fr

South Korea's expansionist policy to support its shipyards, which is heavily contested in Europe and Japan, also involves liquefied natural gas (LNG) for medium-sized ships and bunkering. .

Image
South Korea wants to have a very ambitious LNG plan (here the first bulk carrier propelled by gas). (Photo: DR)

http://www.lemarin.fr/secteurs-activite ... -dici-2025
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Spica.57 » 26/11/18, 10:48

Hello

Another article on the subject, all the captains or rather the companies are not virtuous :-(

https://actu.orange.fr/france/marseille ... 9Ziwl.html

The American captain of a cruise ship, the Azura, pinned in Marseille at the end of March with oil too polluting, was sentenced Monday to 100.000 euros fine for air pollution, a first judicial in France.

Part of the criminal fine imposed on him, up to 80.000 euros, will be paid by his employer, Carnival, world leader in the cruise business, specifies the judgment of the Criminal Court of Marseille.

This conviction is in accordance with the prosecution's submissions, which led to these proceedings.

Carnival, which owns the P&O Cruises brand, "wanted to save money with no regard for the lungs of everyone, in a context of major air pollution caused in part by cruises" in France's leading port, had lashed the prosecutor Franck Lagier at the hearing of October 8.

During a stopover, inspectors had discovered aboard this giant 300 meters long, which can accommodate up to 3.100 passengers and 1.250 crew members, an oil exceeding the limit sulfur, but less expensive .

Captain Evans Hoyt, a 58-year-old American who did not take the stand, "knew full well the irregularity of fuel oil," the magistrate stressed, and Carnival "did not wish to apply the legal standard ".

The court rejected all the nullities invoked by the company, whose lawyers questioned French legislation and anti-pollution standards, decided at European level, which it considered too vague.

Civil Parties, France Nature Environment, Surfrider Foundation and the League for the Protection of Birds have each received 5.000 euros in damages. According to these associations, the pollutant emissions of cruise ships can be 1.500 times higher than those of private vehicles.
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Christophe » 26/11/18, 10:53

Spica.57 wrote:Hello

Another article on the subject, all the captains or rather the companies are not virtuous :-(

https://actu.orange.fr/france/marseille ... 9Ziwl.html

(...)

Civil Parties, France Nature Environment, Surfrider Foundation and the League for the Protection of Birds have each received 5.000 euros in damages. According to these associations, the pollutant emissions of cruise ships can be 1.500 times higher than those of private vehicles.


They were already condemned often enough for wild degassing! Hey yes man is not virtuous at 100% !! Bin thin then !! : Cheesy:

In current conversation, a degassing is equivalent to doing your self emptying in the woods ... or rather in the pond near you ...: Shock:

Otherwise the 1500 number is much more reasonable and realistic! But again, we need to know which pollutant we are talking about ...
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Spica.57 » 28/11/18, 09:07

Good one more video, here we talk about sulfur



Well it seems that the link is not accepted ??
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by izentrop » 28/11/18, 09:42

Suffering was a problem in the 70-80 years because there was too much in the atmosphere.

Emission-SO2-300x260.jpg
emission-SO2-300x260.jpg (14.19 KIO) Accessed 5447 times


Today he is in deficit. The fallout is no longer sufficient.
Sulfur is a natural component of crude oil. Combined with oxygen inside the engine, it generates sulfur dioxide (SO2), a harmful gas that irritates the lungs. In the 1950 years, the particle content rose to more than 10.000 in diesel and 2.000 in gasoline. It went back down to France at 350 ppm for diesel, and 150 for super unleaded 95 and 98. Abroad, the German, Danish, Finnish, Dutch and Swedish governments have put in place, between 1993 and 2000, tax exemption systems allowing refiners to apply the European directive in advance. The material is removed inside the refineries, injecting hydrogen at high temperature and passing the fuel through a catalyst. At the exit, we recover water, and an orange liquid containing sulfur.

More this operation consumes energy, which generates greenhouse gas emissions. If 90% of carbon dioxide (CO2) emitted by the transport sector comes from the combustion of engines, 10% of the emissions come from manufacturing. Compliance with the new 2005 and 2009 standards adds 1% of CO2 emissions by refineries. https://www.lesechos.fr/06/10/2004/LesE ... soufre.htm
And in fact, it is now necessary to add in farmland. https://www.agriculture-nouvelle.fr/le- ... lions-pas/ A stock transfer will you tell me, but this period or it is the CO2 that has become a problem :?: :?: : Evil:

As Did often say, nothing is all black and white : Mrgreen:
Last edited by izentrop the 28 / 11 / 18, 09: 49, 1 edited once.
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Christophe » 28/11/18, 09:46

That the boats pollute on the sulfur, one agrees well since the road fuels are disfavoured during the refining *!

Uh, it's like saying: there is as much limestone in 50 000 000 L of rainwater as in 1 L of limestone!

When they were not, there was acid rain, some people should remember.

I have a distant memory I would say between 1985 and 1999: in the 80 years, a few hectares of forest devastated in the Vosges. A part of the forest was completely yellowed in the middle of a healthy forest ... There was talk of acid rain: I do not know if the road fuels were still responsible (edit: yes according to izentrop news), maybe it was because of a plant or plant that used sulfur coal?

* not sure that in emerging countries it is as much as in "us" ...
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Christophe » 28/11/18, 09:54

Super concentration curve, thank you, it illustrates my point about acid rain!

Well friends, we're in shit because I just remember something!

It is essential that the boats continue to float sulfur oxides in the air because the atmospheric sulfur limits the global warming! Uh, I'm not kidding ... but you have to check the orders of magnitude ...

Indeed; sulfurizing the atmosphere is a technique of Global geoengineering for limit the warming!

2) Deflect and absorb solar radiation by "sulfurizing" the atmosphere

Somewhat the same process as the 1) but staying on Earth (thus already more reasonable) by spraying H2S in the upper atmosphere which would quickly transform into SO2 deviating thus the solar rays.

Aim: to gain "a few degrees" over 10 years

ps: H2S is lethal at high concentrations. At low concentration it "stinks of egg". It can be felt near refinery fuel desulphurization units ...


So we could, maybe (see if the orders of magnitude are the good ones) explain the rise in temperatures of the last years, not by the increase in CO2 (or not completely even if it is CO2, and its "equivalents", which remain responsible for the phenomenon) but by the decrease in sulfur oxides!

Can you check that Izentrop?

Seen on: climate-change-co2 / geoengineering-cool-the-earth-against-the-warming-t2770.html
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Re: [Focus] 1 liner pollutes as much as 1 million cars ... and 1000 tractors!




by Christophe » 28/11/18, 11:08

For quantities I do not know if it sticks ... but there would be a (small) correlation between lower SO2 emissions and higher temperatures: I have scaled the SO2 curve and pasted it on the

Obviously we must assume that French SO2 emissions represent those of the world ...

Hemisphere-North-temperature 1880.jpg
hemisphere-north-temperature-1880.jpg (169.11 KIO) Viewed 5420 times
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