Some Ideas - Ecological Policy

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Ahmed
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by Ahmed » 19/08/14, 20:05

artificial intelligence progresses faster every day ...

In the same proportion as natural intelligence regresses? :P

It is certainly possible to conceive that AI has certain qualities in proportions greater than those which we have spontaneously, in particular memory or speed, but how could we endow it with a property that would be, according to you, unknown to us? consciousness ?
What an admission of renunciation, in favor of an artificial external entity! How to imagine, assuming that these machines have an autonomy of thought that they are far from having to date, how to imagine that this autonomy would necessarily be directed towards the well-being imposed on humanity?

Because, in this school hypothesis, either this entity is autonomous and then no guarantee is offered to us that it acts in this direction and against our will, or it is not and will therefore only reflect the programmed behavior. by its creators!
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by sen-no-sen » 20/08/14, 14:19

Ahmed wrote:Because, in this school hypothesis, either this entity is autonomous and then no guarantee is offered to us that it acts in this direction and against our will, or it is not and will therefore only reflect the behavior programmed by its creators!


By a process fractal scale invariance, it is clear that once an AI is born it will only aim at one thing:increase its fields of action, except there will necessarily come a point where the introduction of this new "species" will lead to the disappearance of the others less adapted ... in fact it is not a question of science fiction since it began in 1850 ...
From a techno-messianic point of view, AI will be the entity that will give the world to machines! (That should remind you of something ...)
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by Ahmed » 21/08/14, 15:55

It is a dialectical progression:
1- the tool at the service of its designer,
2- the operator at the service of the machine,
3- the substitute for the operator, serving the mechanical meta-organism in which it is included.

There are therefore two stages of increasing exclusion of man, the second being final.
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by CertainesIdées » 28/08/14, 21:37

To respond generally to the interventions of Ahmed, sen-no-sen, and janic (maybe I forget?):

I have the impression that you do not believe in a state solution to environmental problems but only in a sum of personal changes.
I am wrong ?

I agree with you about individual change: it is essential. That everyone changes by themselves is also the best solution.

But objectively, do you believe that this mutation can happen by itself?

For my part I think that if the people are able to approve it they cannot impose this change on a daily basis. Hence my political proposal: to support the world towards a new, sustainable and fairer society, without going through the inevitable chaos to which current policies lead us.

It is certainly too late for this transition to take place without a hitch. One of you quotes the Club of Rome: you are absolutely right, that is when action should have been taken. But it is not because the most auspicious moment is to pass that we should give up: it would be giving way to madmen and extremists who would go the opposite way.

Yet ten, twenty or thirty years does not seem to me enough to achieve a global change in society. A century seems reasonable to me.

I will repeat here two fundamental points of the policy I propose to achieve a balanced society:
- orient the economy towards ecology to reduce pollution while retaining the production capacity necessary to ensure the transition.
- turn the page on XNUMXth century capitalism and socialism in order to achieve a fair distribution of money while respecting individual freedoms. It goes through the development of participation, that's what I described here, this is what sometimes happens in the real economy (leaves). It will certainly be so easy in times of growth and it will be so hard in times of recession, but I do not see a viable alternative to move towards balanced societies.
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by Janic » 29/08/14, 07:56

some ideas hello
To respond generally to the interventions of Ahmed, sen-no-sen, and janic (maybe I forget?):

I have the impression that you do not believe in a state solution to environmental problems but only in a sum of personal changes.
I am wrong ?


Partially! The state is supposed to represent the will of the people (in theory). So if there is not a desired will from the bottom, the top will only enact laws that will not be followed willingly. Example the laws on alcohol, tobacco, driving speed, etc ... where there is a policeman behind each offender. Remember the prohibition in America that ended in resounding failure.

On the other hand, when the desire for change increases (for example the rise of Ecology (in general)) the State (despite the opposition of lobbies) can strongly encourage fundamental changes. But in this case, will the necessary time still be there?
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by CertainesIdées » 29/08/14, 09:39

I fully agree with you on the first point: you need the will of the people. Indeed by writing

Some Ideas wrote:For my part I think that if the people are able to approve it they cannot impose this change on a daily basis. Hence my political proposal: to support the world towards a new, sustainable and fairer society, without going through the inevitable chaos to which current policies lead us.


I mean that I think the people capable, in the short term, of validating a policy of global change. But there is always a fairly high step between saying that it must be done (going towards a balance, among other things environmental) and acting (actually consuming less, polluting less, at the individual level). This is where the state must play its role in submitting to the people a viable long-term policy. If the people approve then the state can do everything to make the transfer effective.

What is lacking in my opinion today is a real proposal for the future. The policy I advocate tends towards that of the supporters of degrowth but with a transition long enough to allow the adaptation of lifestyles.


On your second point, the time we have left, I have no answer ...
But what alternatives?
A very rapid transition? at the national level this will be badly lived by the populations and we would be swallowed up if some of our neighbors does not adopt the same policy at the same time.
The slow transition that I advocate must also serve to lead other countries on this same path, without scaring the most reluctant. [/ Quote]
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by Janic » 29/08/14, 10:33

On your second point, the time we have left, I have no answer ...
nobody has any! However, the destruction / construction balance is currently to the detriment of the second and as the author of "the last judgment" said, to redress the bar it would be necessary to invest all the financial means of all nations (in short, nothing for the rest! ) But this is not even possible. So: either we continue on the current pace (even reduced) and we go into the wall
or else we completely disrupt human behavior and it is utopian, it has never existed in our history. So the future is rather bleak, which does not prevent anyone from acting to the best of his convictions.
But what alternatives?
The slow transition that I advocate must also serve to lead other countries on this same path, without scaring the most reluctant.
Precisely, it is this slowness that plays against time. Suppose you have to catch up with a falling object that is going to break, slowness is not required because even with the best will in the world, it will be broken anyway. However, instinctively, we try to catch it even unnecessarily!
So go, you too, with the faith that you have in a possible change, that's what the hope of a better world is for!
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by Ahmed » 29/08/14, 21:34

CertainesIdées, you write :
I have the impression that you do not believe in a state solution to environmental problems but only in a sum of personal changes.

Then:
I am wrong ?

Is it humor? 8)

On the first point, you are right, we do not believe that the solution will come from above. Not only because European governments (and not only them!) Swear by growth and jobs (whatever the content!), But also because there is no political force that goes in the direction ambiguous measures that you advocate: it is the desert.

Despite these objections of size and largely sufficient to overwhelm your good intentions, the main thing is elsewhere.

It goes without saying that the development of alternative energies would no longer be hampered when its profitability was attractive enough to generate the maximum amount of waste required for the proper functioning of the system ...

The question is therefore the following: in a framework dedicated to the accumulation of abstract value, how would it be possible to envisage seriously an orientation that would go against it?
Talking about sobriety is downright blasphemous!

As for the oligarchies, what is their credibility when they address themselves to the "people *", as you do, with the condescension that goes with it, to explain to them (it's nice to them!) That we must hug the belt, work more to earn less?

On the second point, I do not believe in a sum of individual changes, but in an organization of individuals (which is very different) to drive radical changes vis-à-vis current objectives and meet real needs in the balance with the rest of the living.
There is no evidence that it can work and that the system will not continue unabated, but that is the only possibility.
Will the "brainwashing" which has explained for so many decades that the salvation lies in the technological headlong rush prevail, or the awareness that old recipes are no longer the solution but the problem will arise. she ?

Further on, you speak of participation and cooperatives, two forms which aim to falsely reconcile oppositions of interest between social categories: by making the system more acceptable, we hide its faults and prolong our influence.
Participation does not change anything in the social relations of work, in its alienation, or in its content: it only maintains dependence on money.
Cooperatives can appear as havens of freedom, whereas, subject to the laws of the market, they have only the freedom to submit to them.

Janic, you write :
... the destruction / construction balance sheet is against the second currently ...

Indeed, if as Sen-no-sen says, capitalism has not been misleading, measured in terms of the transformation of the world and the accumulation of material goods, the process of constructive destruction, dear to Schumpeter, now appears to many as a fool's bargain and the hopes it aroused are no longer relevant. The extent of the damage and the impossibility of remedying it appear for what they are: not operating errors that a few clever regulations could correct, but forming part of its most intimate essence.

Just as the cells of a body accumulate errors over time and go towards the death of the whole, this system doomed to accumulation will perish of its contradictions. The difference, and it is not small, is that he will take us with him if we are not able to perceive the danger and to emancipate ourselves from him before it is too late.


* I would not use this term, for my part, and this for two reasons: the first is that it is inappropriate to designate a diverse reality under one name, the second, that being part of the people, I do not wish adopt this distance which is anything but neutral.
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by Philippe Schutt » 31/08/14, 18:40

- orient the economy towards ecology to reduce pollution while retaining the production capacity necessary to ensure the transition.

I think that is what is being done, at least as far as production is concerned. Solvent-free paints, reduction in the amount of material in products, less energy-consuming manufacturing processes ...

- turn the page on XNUMXth century capitalism and socialism in order to achieve a fair distribution of money while respecting individual freedoms. This goes through the development of participation, this is what I have described here, this is what sometimes happens in the real economy (there). Certainly it will be so easy in times of growth and it will be so hard in times of recession, but I do not see any viable alternative to move towards balanced societies.


Do you think a guy who hired his house for years to set up his club will be ready to share with his employees, who took no risks? You dream ! He will answer you that they have only to launch out and galley in their turn.
And if the laws oblige him to do so, he will do nothing at all, he will not take the risks to set up his club and you will only have unemployed people.

As long as we move on to Communism, it will be less hypocritical.
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by sen-no-sen » 01/09/14, 14:20

Some Ideas wrote:I have the impression that you do not believe in a state solution to environmental problems but only in a sum of personal changes.
I am wrong ?


Neither...
-The governments which run the states are set up mechanically by the "system" (techno-scientist super-organism), as agents of this one, it would be naive and especially stupid to wait for the slightest change!
A real paradigm shift would mean the end of their careers for them ...


-In terms of individual change, there is unfortunately not much to expect either .. if it is only a small percentage of the population who awakens to ecological problems..percentage far too anecdotal to be able to counterbalance the promises of the model in place ...

There remains the only solution, which is not one:systemic collapse,only sufficient condition to wake up citizens ...

It is for this collapse that we must prepare, and it is during the crumbling phase which precedes it that we must draw the plans for the "after" (many are working on it in the opposing camp ...).

Because we no longer have time, a smooth change was only possible at the turn of the 80s / 90s, it is now too late ...
My speech may seem highly pessimistic, it is unfortunately which realistic.
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