AMI: call for interest on "energy storage"

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AMI: call for interest on "energy storage"




View Christophe » 04/05/11, 11:42

An initiative that should please dedeleco!

Launch of the call for expressions of interest "energy storage"

Within the framework of the "future investment program", the Ministries of Ecology and Sustainable Development, Economy and Industry, Higher Education and Research, as well as the Commissioner General to investment announced the launch of a call for expressions of interest piloted by ADEME, whose theme is "energy storage".


In a market with strong development and under the effect of significant technical innovations, the call for expressions of interest (AMI) concerning energy storage aims to contribute to “the emergence and diffusion of new systems energy storage ”. This AMI is part of the action "demonstrators and technological platforms in renewable and low-carbon energy and chemicals" of the "Investments for the Future Program", whose budget amounts to 1,35 billion euros.

Knowing that “the systemic integration of technologically mature energy storage components or systems (SSE)” was dealt with in other AMIs, this mainly targets the energy storage component or system, its manufacturing process and its first experimental validations. In this context, the various projects selected will contribute, among other things, to reducing the user cost in order to ensure the best economic competitiveness and also to minimize the environmental impact, over the entire life cycle. For those interested, the deadline for submitting applications is August 27, 2011.

A considerable challenge

The development of energy storage technologies, into which AMI is integrated, now covers an economic, industrial and environmental issue, because, despite a weak presence on the battery production market, the Ministry of Economy, Finance and Industry believes that "France has assets in research and development in this area as well as technological know-how inherent in the automobile, power electronics and charging systems ”.

FR (03/05/2011)


Source: http://www.batiactu.com/edito/lancement ... -28950.php

So in fact, according to the last paragraph, this would only concern electrical energy for transport ??? Still billions of public funds for automakers ??? So the potential gains in energy saving on energy storage in the building are much greater ...

So finally, no it will not please ... :|
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 04/05/11, 13:37

So finally, no it will not please ...

It's not me, but objective common sense because with a system that really works
https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... mrk29Z.pdf
website www.dlsc.ca removed from the internet by its supplier on May 22, 2011 !! (lobby ???)
very simple, local, decentralized, that everyone can put in their garden (just drilling holes with an auger), which removes all electricity and CO2 heating, recovering the wasted sun falling on our roofs, we do not prefer in France that the big bouzins, very dangerous like nuclear power, miserable over 50 years like ITER, very big like big storages in big tanks which will cost fortunes dramatically more than the free land that we all have under our feet and our gardens !!

Our big heads of engineers from our Napoleonic system of grandes écoles are completely out of whack !!

And I spit in the soup will say some of them, without hesitation, given this level of nonsense, before a future Chernobyl-Fukushima in France, inevitable sooner or later !!
Last edited by dedeleco the 23 / 05 / 11, 13: 28, 1 edited once.
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View Remundo » 04/05/11, 14:21

It is true that there is something to play in thermal storage in the ground, but it is not so simple.

We can also consider thermal storage in an aquatic buffer (large swimming pool).

You need heat extractors on the roof, coils in the buffer, isolate the buffer (adiabatic partition), a small pump, a little maintenance.

So you have to plan all this from construction, and not after.

For electrical storage, the innovative axis in my opinion is the decentralized tire.

There is also classic to develop (STEP, hydraulics, electrochemical batteries, high temperature thermal ...)

Also keep in mind that the extent of the network, geographic, temporal, as well as the diversity of its sources drastically reduce storage needs.

It would also be interesting to develop "On Demand" deep geothermal energy to ensure peaks.
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View dedeleco » 04/05/11, 17:17

Remundo brings out all the very French ideas very expensive solutions such as effective pools that if they are 500m3 or more, well insulated (3m of insulation on summer for winter), etc., ignoring the earth under our feet, free in huge volumes 1000m3 and more with 25 holes, which are much more economical.

I am still frightened by the difficulty of making this understood in France, which only these Canadians have understood scientifically without basic errors and realized: as explained on the brochure
https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... mrk29Z.pdf

This site no longer has an Internet provider and therefore has disappeared:
http://www.dlsc.ca May 22, 2011

So beware of all reviews of the Remundo type by French habits which often contain errors.

Judge by understanding the scientific and basic aspect of the diffusion of heat, which if not assimilated causes a lot of errors even for the usual Canadian wells often undersized with heat pump.

An inexpensive solution: a stove that burns all the free vegetables at your home and thrown by the neighbors at the plant recycling center !!
At my home and around, it's huge, even gigantic this waste all around !!
And nobody is aware of it !!!!
Last edited by dedeleco the 23 / 05 / 11, 13: 24, 1 edited once.
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Obamot
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View Obamot » 04/05/11, 17:26

The state of the art in energy storage by phase shift is found in this thread:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-e ... 10470.html

I really find it very unfortunate that Dedelco continues to post the link on the Canadian site, for once I will tackle it nicely ^^ (while as specified in the thread above, they use a gas back-up ... and that the goal is to do without fossil or electrical energy, as in the case of heat pumps). The goal is to store heat at medium depth.

In addition, we are still waiting for the figures for the performance of shallow storage! There is none because it involves using a heat pump what we want to avoid.

But it is true that in my corner, we are dummies and we have no experience with the cold (Brévine -40 ° C in winter, it's really light to do tests ... ^^) So you have to go find the truth "in Canada" : Mrgreen:
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dedeleco
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View dedeleco » 04/05/11, 18:00

There is none because it involves using a heat pump what we want to avoid.

archival because 15m2 of sensor on garage per pavilion in very cold region !!
Nothing prevents you from having much more cheap in summer and removing the backup which is a backup safety in a well designed system taking no risk.
It is not because they have kept this security that their solution is bad !!
On the contrary, it is to be used in France much less cold.

And it is appalling that we use this type of argument to denigrate this best solution to remove CO2 and nuclear power in perpetuity heating and justify the heat pumps that make nuclear green, real manipulation.

Just take stock of the heat received in summer on a 100m2 roof to get wasted heat to avoid with this underground storage between 20m and 6m deep.

What frightens me are the affirmations without clear energy calculations and the number of realizations with visible basic errors as soon as we have assimilated the heat diffusion.

In France, nor in Switzerland, on the internet, I have not seen anything similar to dlsc.ca, well sized, with in addition 50 to 100m2 of cheap summer sensors per pavilion removing all help !!

It itches to me to realize it on my old houses in my gardens: pb price of holes or auger !!
and also authorization pb for solar collectors on the roof.
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phil53
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View phil53 » 04/05/11, 18:59

I am convinced like you dedeleco that it must work.
A stranger anyway, it should not run too much water in the ground.
Me too itchy to give it a try.
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View Obamot » 04/05/11, 19:25

It's not "It must work", mash potatoes! If a BE gives me an answer like that, I quickly repack it!

It's calculated AND it works full stop! Rondgonduju! : Mrgreen:

dedeleco wrote:
Obamot wrote:There is none because it involves using a heat pump what we want to avoid.

archival because 15m2 of sensor on garage per pavilion in very cold region !!
Nothing prevents you from having much more cheap in summer and removing the backup which is a backup safety in a well designed system taking no risk.
It is not because they have kept this security that their solution is bad !!
On the contrary, it is to be used in France much less cold.

And it is frightening that we use this type of argument to denigrate this best solution to remove CO2 and nuclear power in perpetuity heating and justify the PACs that make nuclear green, real manipulation.

You haven't read well, rellis, I marked it in RED!

dedeleco wrote:Just take stock of the heat received in summer on a 100m2 roof to get wasted heat to avoid with this underground storage between 20m and 6m deep.

Impossible, because at these depths we are always under the influence of the surface temperature !!! And you do not take into account that it takes a substantial thickness of earth (~ 10m?) To serve as “thermal insulation”!

My opinion is that in the current state, with the new hybrid PV + thermal panels from the EPFZ, we cannot give any feedback yet, since it is currently in the testing phase. But the depth for a small subdivision as in your link, is evaluated at min. 150m. So don't be so impatient, the answer will come soon. And in addition, it will produce electric current, which you do not specify in your posts.

The point of all of this is to make houses that produce more energy than they consume. This is already the case with "Enegy +", only the validation of the system by “phase shift” is missing.

dedeleco wrote:What frightens me are the affirmations without clear energy calculations and the number of realizations with visible basic errors as soon as we have assimilated the heat diffusion.

Do not reverse the STP roles, it is up to YOU ​​to provide the calculations to prove that what you say works! As I suggested to you in the thread ...
https://www.econologie.com/forums/stockage-e ... 10470.html

But so much has already been experienced in the field, that honestly you will have trouble ...

... moreover, what you do each time is relatively unproductive, because we agree on everything EXCEPT the drilling depth, we will be fully fixed in six months !!!
Last edited by Obamot the 04 / 05 / 11, 19: 27, 1 edited once.
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View Christophe » 04/05/11, 19:27

I was sure that the dedéleco would sell us "its" solution from its 1st message, I was not mistaken ... : Cheesy: : Cheesy:

But I remain skeptical! In my opinion, this solution poses a serious problem in our latitudes: runoff cools the earth! So reserve for desert or semi-desert regions or regions with a clay layer!

Pending this quick fix, I only know 2 houses with interesting solar thermal water buffers (i.e. several tens of m3):

This one ("prototype" in Friborg): https://www.econologie.com/maison-solair ... -3790.html
Debate : https://www.econologie.com/forums/une-maison ... t5233.html

And ours:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/photos-mai ... t5283.html
https://www.econologie.com/forums/tampon-the ... t4517.html
Comments by dedeleco: https://www.econologie.com/forums/post166053.html#166053

I recall the performance roughly:

Medium insulation (25cm Ytong walls)
Climate control: bay windows south and west, little opening to the north
Belgian Ardennes at 400 m altitude

Semi passive: 6 to 7 months without heating or DHW supplement
Auxiliary heating (wood) cut to March 15, 2011.
Wood consumption for winter 2010-2011: less than 5 cubic meters.
The most beautiful for the end: license from 1981 !!!

When I see the new houses currently built with identical windows on the 4 facades = no consideration of the climate ... I get mad! It's just CRIMINAL!

South of Lyon in the plain this house would most probably be considered passive all year round ... too bad the insulation is not a bit more important (but for the time it was already exceptional) ....

Lack more than 3 to 4 kW of PV to clear the electric bill (solar pumping still eats about 800 kWh per year, I inquire to lower the pump power) ...

There is also Tigrou's house, but only 1 m3 of buffer: https://www.econologie.com/une-maison-so ... -3789.html

To return to the original subject of the subject: we still don't know what this call concerns: thermal or electric storage? Anyone know how to read between the lines?

It still feels like a gift for car manufacturers ... with an almost zero effect on primary energy and warming (unlike residential thermal storage) ... :|
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View Remundo » 04/05/11, 19:51

dedeleco wrote:Remundo brings out all the very French ideas very expensive solutions such as effective pools that if they are 500m3 or more, well insulated (3m of insulation on summer for winter), etc., ignoring the earth under our feet, free in huge volumes 1000m3 and more with 25 holes, which are much more economical.

I am still frightened by the difficulty of making this understood in France, which only these Canadians have understood scientifically without basic errors and realized:
http://www.dlsc.ca/DLSC_Brochure_f.pdf
http://www.dlsc.ca

So beware of all reviews of the Remundo type by French habits which often contain errors.

Judge by understanding the scientific and basic aspect of the diffusion of heat,

Funny, "Beware of the Remundo guy" :D

oh, I'm not that bad, huh? : Cheesy:

No, what to be wary of is thermal diffusion, and also conductive convection linked to runoff of rainwater.

If you do not isolate your storage well, you will lose a good part of the calories that you collected with fervor during the summer. Something like that cannot be improvised. It takes a complete thermal study and rather go to new subdivisions, although the old can adapt ...

You also need a heat network ... you have to anticipate all of this and drastically reduce thermal leaks.

But you will see, Dede, soon I will publish something that you should like ...
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