Improved insert René Brisach: air preheating

[Flytox]

Message divided since https://www.econologie.com/forums/poele-a-pe ... 13707.html

Quote:
Poujoulat claims that preheat the combustion air brings a gain up to 10%. So all good. The defect is that the whole apparatus is warmer, everything goes to a much higher T °.

Chui modifying my insert "René Brisach". The modification consists in channeling and heating the "primary" air. Originally, the air enters through 6 small windows adjustable in width with 2 small zippers, and falls directly into the fireplace.





Behind the small windows, the air now passes between the "floor" of the insert and a cast iron sheet over a length of 7 cm and a height of approximately 1 cm, which is exposed directly to the heat of the fireplace.
Now it is possible to completely close the air zippers even with damp wood !!!! The annoying tendency that this insert had to go out very quickly, if not enough air, completely disappeared. The flame is more "calm" and regular over the entire width of the insert.

Soon a measure of the temperature of the air coming in .... yapluka find the Thermocouple that goes well ... The floor of the fireplace taken from below is in the 250 ° C, the sheet of the top can be hotter still ?

Guiding / bringing air closer to the center of the hearth also benefits the consistency / regularity of combustion.

For "secondary" air, there may be this effect with the "clean glass" leak located at the level of the closure of the insert door. Indeed it seems that from a certain closing of the air zippers, the flames take a little of the hair of the beast and start to swirl (green arrow) near the door closure (not very visible on a instantaneous ).



For the clean glass effect, on the entire right side of the door, it's all clogged with a cord fiberglass ...... and it's cleaner than before!: Mrgreen: By cons, the focus becomes asymmetrical (more flames on the left than on the right ) always when the air zippers are relatively closed, otherwise it is the same.

Conclusion, no record of consumption / temperature (disparate mix of dry wood and very wet weather and changing weather + wind) but it seems that this modification guide / heating the primary air improves this insert!

[Flytox]

The "best" performance seems to be when the fireplace is hot, well loaded, all logs over their entire width burn nicely but the air vents are not fully closed. (Opening between 15 and 30%)

When the zippers are closed completely, the flames move much less, sometimes meander over the logs, the color of the flames darkens (temperature drop !?), the gas / flame sweep changes course (especially with the "clean window" leak "and the radiation perceived at the window decreases, the window remains" clean "anyway.

[bidouille23]

Hi late evening ...

1 ere you question how do you take pictures with all the colors?

I will try with another device can be;)
;;;
Otherwise I confirm we can see the glass system prorpe (I'll have to punch holes forgotten on mine ...

The disadvantage of this system is that the air is injected cold or almost amha ... but once the stove is hot it still works.

As you have noticed, there is a certain amount of wood to be eaten, and what is clear is that the amount of wood is directly related to the loss of the stove ...
the stove "eats" a certain amount (reduced by the addition of insulation), it is therefore necessary at the start to load the right amount of wood, and regularly reloaded with fuel (roughly between 35 and 45 min depending on the pace ) ...

In my insert edit I also have a pressure difference, sometimes the lights take to the right of other times on the left, more often on the right side opening ... and there are often beautiful swirls ...

The proportion of 1er and secondary air is 1 / 3 primary air 2 / 3 secondary air heated ... as you did notice it must have found the right balance, which will vary depending on the wooden load ...

and when the flames are calm, the amount of wood there, so if the temperature is too, the radiation is huge, it is the fire of hell pyrolysis the glass and the inside of the stove ... perso on my window finally a few centimeters the thermocouple indicates more than 340 ° c
when it rounds dry but far from being thoroughly ...
, way too hot ... smoked them around 200 ° c
And I can get my hands on the plates, I do not come out black, that's one of the signs that it burns too bad too;).

insulation made from vermiculite and melted cement for example in proportion of 5 vermiculite and 1 cement, and very little water (lacquerity indicated on the bag it is very dry but it is done for.After you mold in a wooden frame counting the double volume of the frame and you cup with a roller type iron bar


a thickness of 4 cm is good (minimum effective thickness in insulation of the building;)) ...
Make plates too wide 15 cm 20 cm like that it will not crack.

And well follow the instructions for the drying marked on the bag, in terms of cooking, I cooked my first in a stove abois, bringing them little by little and exposing them in front of glass, and finished in contact with progressive fire, small fire that is made to grow slowly ...

my oldest plate has 5



Short tests insulating it if you have time you will be surprised .... and for the air warmed a double duct is not bad on a meter I think at the exit of the stove if possible of course (as it looks like a insert well inserted it may be hard I am very serious).



Looking forward to read more ...

[jonule]

what are your smoke at 200 ° C? but what a mess !! =)) I joke, but it means everything: what to do with heat?

if we want it to shine in the room, do not insulate the stove too much? if not the heat will leave in the conduit?
I am to recover the calories at the exit of the stove, but then as much to manufacture a boiler? well insulated that burns well (gasification / condensation type) but does not radiate, on the other hand that heats water?
in short, a happy medium is needed ...

but recovering heat at the exhaust is always winning ...
"the fire is a triangle, one of the bases of which is the t ° C of the oxidizer (air)": + the injected air is hot, the more the base of the triangle increases and makes the triangle increase in size, and therefore the fire.
the "feller" potter's oven uses a fan to take in the fresh air, to blow it through the smoke outlet (huge metal exchanger in the bricks bushels) and to re-blow it at the entrance of the stove, to mix with fresh air ... here to reach 1300 ° C it's hard to cook 8 hours long you need 10 cubic meters of wood, with the feller oven you can go up to 1400 and 1 or 2 cubic meters is enough: instead of bringing in air at 0 ° C (winter), we inject air at 500 ° C: we start from 500 ° C and not from 0 ° C: that's always a win.
obviously it is important to isolate an oven because we do not want it to radiate, we want it to cook inside
...

ditto with a wood stove, give it cold air cools it, especially if the flow sweeps all in and leaves with the heat ... outside, without having radiated! =)

good luck, naked!

[bidouille23]

re hi jonul

if we want it to shine in the room, do not insulate the stove too much? if not the heat will leave in the conduit?

insulation always has its limits, when you say isolated it is not a shield ceramic wool or rock or both ...

Suddenly it plays increases the temperature as you have to explain phillippe in the line on the pellet stove ...

but it also increases the infra-red radiation, and in a stove is what heats the room more so to speak (unless I'm mistaken of course) ...

Totally agree with you for the vision of the flame, this says to take advantage of it I told myself that putting a frame lined with copper tube in which passes water could be the most beautiful effect. Because more than 300 ° c in front of the glass you do not take long, a radiation shield in tube must do it ...

but the best is the gasification boiler as you say ...

perso I did not show just at the outlet insert a gas bottle that serves as a bell, then the smoke go into the conduit itself ...

Too low the smoke is not great when it condenses ... it is corrosive anyway ... (9 personal lead m, I did not measure the temperature of the exit when it is cold I do not take so no risk;)), but recover all that we can is obviously I agree, but too often neglected ...

As you said the only thing I see really effective is a gasifier ... with condensation of smoke before the exit ....

On the secondary air introduced by the edges of window I am of your opinion, even if it still helps with the combustion but not with the direct radiation ....

the insulation will make him taff ... cheap and easy to implement ....

And for the insulation of an oven the goal is also to keep the temperature at the max where the big insulation ... I'm going to see that thank you ...


from here to later

[Flytox]

Hi late evening ...

1 ere you question how do you take pictures with all the colors?

I will try with another device can be;)

It is pulled with a Nikon coolpix 7900 (of 10 years?) In automatic with the artificial light and without retouching ...

Otherwise I confirm we can see the glass system prorpe (I'll have to punch holes forgotten on mine ...

Well seen ...... it's filth since the start of the cold season ... when I cleaned "with the newspaper", it ended up scratching everything ....

the stove "eats" a certain amount (reduced by the addition of insulation), it is therefore necessary at the start to load the right amount of wood, and regularly reloaded with fuel (roughly between 35 and 45 min depending on the pace ) ...

To keep a more constant activity of the insert, I recharge more often (15 minutes?) But with well divided logs (ladle, diameter 8 cm max).

In my insert edit I also have a pressure difference, sometimes the lights take to the right of other times on the left, more often on the right side opening ... and there are often beautiful swirls ...

The test by sealing the edges of the glass (beautiful strainer see photo ...) and by blocking the window leak clean (door closing side) seems essential to isolate what is the primary air and how it works.

The proportion of 1er and secondary air is 1 / 3 primary air 2 / 3 secondary air heated ... as you did notice it must have found the right balance, which will vary depending on the wooden load ...

On this Brisach insert, you can "easily" heat the air under the firebox, for the primary air before bringing it to the zippers and the added cast iron sheet. There must be some way to get a whopping 100 or 200 ° C more. Chui thinking about the modification ...

In addition, by modifying the small shutter in the floor of the insert (used to remove the ashes when the insert is off) you can also route heated air through a pipe to pass into the fireplace, between the embers and make a "high" outlet (multi-drilled pipe) in the fireplace for the secondary air.

and when the flames are calm, the amount of wood there, so if the temperature is too, the radiation is huge, it is the fire of hell pyrolysis the glass and the inside of the stove ... perso on my window finally a few centimeters the thermocouple indicates more than 340 ° c
when it rounds dry but far from being thoroughly ...

Infrared thermometer (thank you Econo ) also climbed to 340 ° C, full pot!

insulation made from vermiculite and melted cement for example in proportion of 5 vermiculite and 1 cement, and very little water (lacquerity indicated on the bag it is very dry but it is done for.After you mold in a wooden frame counting the double volume of the frame and you cup with a roller type iron bar


a thickness of 4 cm is good (minimum effective thickness in insulation of the building;)) ...
Make plates too wide 15 cm 20 cm like that it will not crack.

This will be part of the tests, but certainly not on all internal surfaces of the fireplace, 14 stere cut 50 cm .... it's not to have any re-cut for a few cm ....

[bidouille23]

It is pulled with a Nikon coolpix 7900 (10 years?) Automatically in the artificial light and without editing ... Mr. Green

ha ben that's it's on I have a samsung yet I had to tear and artificial light ...

Well seen ...... it's filth since the start of the cold season ... when I cleaned "with the newspaper", it ended up scratching everything .... Frowning Mr. Green

personal wet sponge and gray ash super fine ... I stop the newspaper ....

Anyway your own glass is burning while we keep it (kind start top down;)) .... and doing like you a beautiful fire with wood section 8 cm max pif;). ..
All the 1 / 4 it consumes your gear so say ...

1 point isolation;

on the other hand, intersecting logs: 0 point insulation ...

On this Brisach insert, you can "easily" heat the air under the firebox, for the primary air before bringing it to the zippers and the added cast iron sheet. There must be some way to get a whopping 100 or 200 ° C more. Chui thinking about the modification ...

In addition, by modifying the small shutter in the floor of the insert (used to remove the ashes when the insert is off) you can also route heated air through a pipe to pass into the fireplace, between the embers and make a "high" outlet (multi-drilled pipe) in the fireplace for the secondary air.

Go and heat marcel ... ... it's a cast iron, your reborn? it can cash, you're sure to be able to calm the fire if you see that it goes into a spin (I think otherwise you would not have fun at that ) ...

FYI when I say that my window is a 345 ° C is not full fluff is in mode purr;), when I put the power I am not far from 400 ° c and you appreciate the fact of be able to control the outbreak well, the runaway is not far and the window changes appearance .... as you say jonul you go on a triangle base 150 see 200 ° c and more room temperature .. .

I have seen myself borderline sometimes I must say, well loaded and there you have the right temperature and you feel that the fire changes its behavior, it "accelerates", if you do not calm it down we call it a runaway and that makes quite bizarre a stove which makes a noise of turbo, a casing which becomes almost transparent so hot it is ...

Personally I would not play that before being fully sure that when you cut the air you stop the fire .... in cases where I voluntarily have been trying the runaway , I cut the air under the fire, and the I said to myself it's not good, it's just the perfect thing to make you a kind of explosion super great ... it's in temperature dry degass lacks more than the oxidizer ... due to it I almost cut off the secondary air just a net so that the flame faces by marrying the baffle, and reduce the primary air to gently lower the temperature .....

In short I trust you but I invite readers to take the necessary precautions;) ....

And the blow of the tube that goes up through the embers I think it will do it well is the principle of turbo deum (deom)? but upside down ...


see you

[Flytox]

Anyway your own glass is burning while we keep it (kind start top down;)) .... and doing like you a beautiful fire with wood section 8 cm max pif;). ..
All the 1 / 4 it consumes your gear so say ...

Not yet measured the temperature in the exhaust (diameter 250 mm?) But already measured the skin above 250 ° C. Yes, it is very greedy .... must say that question isolation of the house, it's not the top ... Finally, normally it should change in the year if everything goes well ...

Go and heat marcel ... ... it's a cast iron, your reborn? it can cash, you're sure to be able to calm the fire if you see that it goes into a spin (I think otherwise you would not have fun at that ) ...

A whole cast iron actually, but no idea of ​​the temperature that it can bear continuously. Neither how do we measure this in a representative way

This insert (35 years?) And shows some signs of fatigue. The big baffle roof just below the exhaust is deformed certainly following a big overheating .... There too he will have a replacement, certainly an automatic pellet pellet.

I have seen myself borderline sometimes I must say, well loaded and there you have the right temperature and you feel that the fire changes its behavior, it "accelerates", if you do not calm it down we call it a runaway and that makes quite bizarre a stove which makes a noise of turbo, a casing which becomes almost transparent so hot it is ...

When he "gets carried away", so far shutting off the air completely he calms down after about a minute. Anyway, if I mount a secondary air circuit, there will be an adjustable closure somewhere to avoid trafalgar hits ...

[bidouille23]

re ... by the fire;) ....


250 ° C on the skin, you warm my friend's birds


so far on insert I saw the cast iron broken (too fast shot fast)

but little had really heated ....

so to give an element of answer ... some fonts there are full but I think that one is on fonts said allied or special



dixit http://philippe.berger2.free.fr/product ... fontes.htm

10 - Alloy or special cast iron:

When a cast iron with particular properties is needed, this type of cast iron may be used, the addition elements of which may vary the physical, chemical or mechanical properties. The most common uses in the industry are:



a) White fonts:



Ni-hard cast irons are cast iron with a martensitic structure, the main characteristic of which is wear resistance up to 700 ° C.



Chromium carbide cast irons: In addition to their wear resistance, they have good resistance to oxidation up to 900 ° C.



Ferritic cast iron with chromium: they are characterized by a conservation characteristics up to 600 ° C, excellent resistance to swelling and oxidation, up to 1000 ° C and good resistance to corrosion by many acids.



b) Gray cast iron and GS:



The following qualities are equally relevant to gray cast iron and GS cast iron, with the exception of 14 18% cast irons, whose graphite is lamellar.



Improved pearlitic cast irons: they allow, by a moderate addition of elements, an improvement of the mechanical characteristics or of the resistance to wear, friction, an improvement of the resistance to temperatures below 550 ° C or an increase in the resistance to corrosion by moderately aggressive media.



The bainitic or martensitic melts: they are obtained in the raw state of casting, these structures have an excellent resistance to the wear by friction even under high pressures, allied with high mechanical characteristics and a good capacity of damping of the vibrations .



5-7% Si ferritic iron: they form a layer of silica on the surface that prevents the development of oxidation and swelling of graphite particles. Operating temperatures are 850 ° C (lamellar graphite) or 900 ° C (spheroidal graphite).



Ferritic cast iron with 14-18% Si: with lamellar graphite, excellent resistance to corrosion by most organic and mineral acids at any concentration and very aggressive salts.



Austenitic fonts: they form an important group defined in the standard NF A32-301.



Among the twenty defined qualities, each corresponds to a particular application (Ni-Resist, Nicrosital, Nomag, ...). Depending on the qualities, these fonts have the following properties:



* good resistance to corrosion in various environments.

* Resistance to high temperatures up to 900 ° C.

* good low temperature resilience up to -200 ° C.

* resistance to friction wear superior to that of gamma steels.

* high electrical resistivity.

* Amagnetism.

* Expansion coefficient adaptable according to the amount of addition elements.

it is already expensive but I think it will take even more ... you start to look what you like pellet stove;) .... humor, a deflector it changes, at the scrap you even have a chance to find the same;) ...

and if all the rest is joined, simple metal walls will serve as a firewall ... it will give you a little more time, the insulation will lengthen even more but, as you said there are limits ...

Show us what was in the belly with some improvement sum simple in the end ... but potentially very advantageous ....

see you

[Flytox]

re ... by the fire;) ....


250 ° C on the skin, you warm my friend's birds

+ 1; The temperature varies a lot from one area to another on the exhaust. The location at 250 ° C is next to 135 °, in the 10 cm between the two .... This is reminiscent of a hotspot of an exhaust stream not at all homogeneous spiraling up inside pipe for example.

so far on insert I saw the cast iron broken (too fast shot fast)

but little had really heated ....

There, the "roof" deflector has taken shape (creep) ... where it heats the most (in the middle) and the weight is felt.

Show us what was in the belly with some improvement sum simple in the end ... but potentially very advantageous ....

It's difficult to take pictures .... when I come from work, it makes 12 15 ° C in the house ...... first, we warm up, and then we discuss. Lack of pot, when the insert is hot we can not show what is interesting .... Maybe this WE photos.