Greta facing the deputies

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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by sicetaitsimple » 24/07/20, 19:54

ABC2019 wrote:"Kill the coal" is quick to say, we are not there yet, and if you consider gas production, we are still far from zero CO2.


I did not speak of zero CO2. I just said that tax systems like ETS could be effective in gradually changing an energy system, which you seem to deny.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by sicetaitsimple » 24/07/20, 20:19

ABC2019 wrote:yeah but consumption too ...


No.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... t_overview
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ABC2019
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 20:23

sicetaitsimple wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:"Kill the coal" is quick to say, we are not there yet, and if you consider gas production, we are still far from zero CO2.


I did not speak of zero CO2. I just said that tax systems like ETS could be effective in gradually changing an energy system, which you seem to deny.

it's just that you misread me so, where did I deny that "it could change the energy system"?
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 20:26

sicetaitsimple wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:yeah but consumption too ...


No.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... t_overview

indeed, I was speaking globally. The problem is that all the reductions in consumption in the OECD (partly due, moreover, to the export of consuming industries whose products are then re-imported) are more than largely offset by the growth of poor countries - which have no reason to deprive themselves of throwing themselves on all the crumbs that we want to leave them. We are happy with our little statistics on renewable energies in Europe, but at the global level that does not solve absolutely any problem.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by sicetaitsimple » 24/07/20, 22:07

ABC2019 wrote:
sicetaitsimple wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:yeah but consumption too ...


No.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... t_overview

indeed, I was speaking globally. The problem is that all the reductions in consumption in the OECD (partly due, moreover, to the export of consuming industries whose products are then re-imported) are more than largely offset by the growth of poor countries - which have no reason to deprive themselves of throwing themselves on all the crumbs that we want to leave them. We are happy with our little statistics on renewable energies in Europe, but at the global level that does not solve absolutely any problem.


No problem will be solved in 5, 10 or even 20 years ....
But the OECD countries in a way establish a "benchmark" in terms of energy consumption. It is up to them to find the means, and "carbon taxes" in various forms are one of them, to lower their current level on the one hand and to make it less and less consumer of fossils and emitter of CO2. on the other hand. It's just their interest well understood in the medium / long term, at least from my point of view.

It is not a question of "crumbs", it is a question of finding a level of consumption and mix if not sustainable, but towards which at least one converges, some decreasing and others increasing gradually.
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ABC2019
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 22:23

sicetaitsimple wrote:No problem will be solved in 5, 10 or even 20 years ....
But the OECD countries in a way establish a "benchmark" in terms of energy consumption. It is up to them to find the means, and "carbon taxes" in various forms are one of them, to lower their current level on the one hand and to make it less and less consumer of fossils and emitter of CO2. on the other hand. It's just their interest well understood in the medium / long term, at least from my point of view.

It is not a question of "crumbs", it is a question of finding a level of consumption and mix if not sustainable, but towards which at least one converges, some decreasing and others increasing gradually.

to be clear: personally I have nothing against decarbonizing electricity production. But that will not change anything for the climate, it will only gain a little on the exhaustion of the fossils, but in the end we will surely end up burning everything, and we will find ourselves at the same point.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by sicetaitsimple » 24/07/20, 22:42

ABC2019 wrote:to be clear: personally I have nothing against decarbonizing electricity production.
But it won't change anything for the climate,

You know absolutely nothing.
ABC2019 wrote: it will only gain a little on the exhaustion of fossils,

That would already be good, by giving more time to deploy alternative solutions.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 23:04

sicetaitsimple wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:to be clear: personally I have nothing against decarbonizing electricity production.
But it won't change anything for the climate,

You know absolutely nothing.

it's just logic, as long as we don't find an alternative, we will continue to use it.
ABC2019 wrote: it will only gain a little on the exhaustion of fossils,

That would already be good, by giving more time to deploy alternative solutions.

for the moment the alternatives represent only a few% of energy consumption, and therefore only save a few years. And a few years that does not change anything in the final climate, in other words the "savings" that we make now have only a negligible impact on the climate.

The real parameter is knowing how far we will seek to exploit unconventional fossils, and that, not only does nobody know, but the policies followed have very little effect on this parameter - unless we did the only thing that would really have an impact, and which no one does, namely outright ban the exploration and production of unconventional resources.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by sicetaitsimple » 24/07/20, 23:31

ABC2019 wrote:it's just logic, as long as we don't find an alternative, we will continue to use it.


I wrote just before: That would already be good, by giving more time to deploy alternative solutions.

Many already exist, but are often still more expensive today than using fossils. It is a question of deploying them (for those which exist), of lowering their cost, and certainly of developing new ones.
But to repeat myself, the effects are not going to be seen in a massive way in 5 to 10 years, do not dream either.
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ABC2019
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 25/07/20, 07:10

some scientific data that may have escaped Greta ...

https://environmentalprogress.org/apoca ... slide-deck
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