Greta facing the deputies

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ABC2019
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 12:21

izentrop wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:this is also the implicit reasoning of the "conventional peak", there is still oil but more expensive, so that lowers consumption ...
More expensive to produce but less expensive at the pump.
You seem to forget that the world economy operates under a supply / demand regime and that a period of crisis like the one we are currently experiencing encourages us to consume even more non-renewable products.

uh, not at all, a crisis like this has considerably reduced the world consumption of non-renewables, on the contrary, like all crises elsewhere (and much more and faster than all the "policies" of reduction of GHGs) . This is normal since if it is a crisis ... we consume less, by definition.

A tax on everything that is traded, calculated on the CO2 equivalent released or absorbed into the atmosphere would make it obvious that the word "renewable" has been overused today.

You see that you did not understand anything : Wink:

I don't think you answered my question: a priori if the tax encouraged the switch to renewables, that should also be the case for the natural increase in the cost of the resource, which has the same effect.

I see above all that it is you who did not understand anything about my remark :) .
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by izentrop » 24/07/20, 13:51

ABC2019 wrote:this one considerably reduced world consumption non-renewable
And it will start again with a vengeance because of supply >>> demand, once again undermining resilience efforts.
ABC2019 wrote:a priori, if the tax encouraged the switch to renewables, this should also be the case for the natural increase in the cost of the resource, which has the same effect.

natural increase? to follow the cost of living but distorted by a growing cost of extraction.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 13:58

izentrop wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:this one considerably reduced world consumption non-renewable
And it will start again with a vengeance because of supply >>> demand, once again undermining resilience efforts.

if it starts again, prices will go up, and that will limit consumption just as much. The current crisis is only cyclical and will not lead a priori to any modification of economically accessible resources, it may just give a little respite (tiny, of a few months), in the time it takes to extract them.

ABC2019 wrote:a priori, if the tax encouraged the switch to renewables, this should also be the case for the natural increase in the cost of the resource, which has the same effect.

natural increase? to follow the cost of living but distorted by a growing cost of extraction.

I don't understand what you mean by "distorted", precisely the increasing cost of extraction will a priori cause a drop in demand at some point, right? otherwise why would there be a peak?
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by izentrop » 24/07/20, 14:14

You are only diverting the debate on the obvious to oust the crucial problem of global warming and CO2.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by Paul72 » 24/07/20, 14:19

ABC2019 wrote:
izentrop wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:this one considerably reduced world consumption non-renewable
And it will start again with a vengeance because of supply >>> demand, once again undermining resilience efforts.

if it starts again, prices will go up, and that will limit consumption just as much. The current crisis is only cyclical and will not lead a priori to any modification of economically accessible resources, it may just give a little respite (tiny, of a few months), in the time it takes to extract them.

ABC2019 wrote:a priori, if the tax encouraged the switch to renewables, this should also be the case for the natural increase in the cost of the resource, which has the same effect.

natural increase? to follow the cost of living but distorted by a growing cost of extraction.

I don't understand what you mean by "distorted", precisely the increasing cost of extraction will a priori cause a drop in demand at some point, right? otherwise why would there be a peak?


The interest of establishing a carbon price from the moment of extraction, which cannot be reduced. A bit like all the taxes we pay at the pump and which smooth the prices independently of supply and demand (well more or less ...). It remains to be clearly determined what to do with it.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by Eric DUPONT » 24/07/20, 16:14

it is what to do with it that is unclear.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 18:43

izentrop wrote:You are only diverting the debate on the obvious to oust the crucial problem of global warming and CO2.


mes "the obvious" are just rectifications of false things that you say ... but you still do not answer the asked question ... it is as if we were talking about HCQ and that you answered "the problem c ' is the Covid 19 ", that would not answer the question of the effectiveness of the HCQ !!

you still haven't explained why a tax is necessary if the scarcity of the resource is in itself sufficient to limit consumption - which you seem to say for oil.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 18:45

Paul72 wrote:The interest of establishing a carbon price from the moment of extraction, which cannot be reduced. A bit like all the taxes we pay at the pump and which smooth the prices independently of supply and demand (well more or less ...). It remains to be clearly determined what to do with it.


it remains above all to determine the price it takes to limit to a given volume, which is by no means obvious.

Besides that you are well aware, I hope, that your proposal has absolutely no chance of being realized before the fossils are completely exhausted?
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by sicetaitsimple » 24/07/20, 19:03

ABC2019 wrote:it remains above all to determine the price it takes to limit to a given volume, which is by no means obvious.

Besides that you are well aware, I hope, that your proposal has absolutely no chance of being realized before the fossils are completely exhausted?


It's wrong. The implementation of the ETS (Emissions Trading Scheme) in Europe, even if it initially slipped due to more or less redundant policies, is gradually "killing" the production of electricity from coal since that the price of a tonne of CO2 has exceeded twenty euros.
And at the same time, production from renewables is only increasing.

Of course, this is just the example of Europe, but it works. Of course, this does not show results overnight, the system has to adapt which necessarily takes time.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 19:30

sicetaitsimple wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:it remains above all to determine the price it takes to limit to a given volume, which is by no means obvious.

Besides that you are well aware, I hope, that your proposal has absolutely no chance of being realized before the fossils are completely exhausted?


It's wrong. The implementation of the ETS (Emissions Trading Scheme) in Europe, even if it initially slipped due to more or less redundant policies, is gradually "killing" the production of electricity from coal since that the price of a tonne of CO2 has exceeded twenty euros.

"Kill the coal" is quick to say, we are not there yet, and if you consider gas production, we are still far from zero CO2.

on the other hand it has nothing to do with Paul72's proposal to set a floor price for fossils.

And at the same time, production from renewables is only increasing.

yeah but consumption too ...

Of course, this is just the example of Europe, but it works. Of course, this does not show results overnight, the system has to adapt which necessarily takes time.


yes that's it as you say it will necessarily take time .. probably more than the time taken for the fossils to run out !!!
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