Greta facing the deputies

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realistic ecology
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by realistic ecology » 23/07/20, 16:27

Ahmed wrote:...

I do not understand your obstinacy in confusing duration in history and making history.
Our world today has not been shaped by 50 years of hunter-gatherers, however long it takes. It has become what it is from the agricultural revolution, then above all from the scientific revolution.

But whatever. In my first post here I answered questions about how to get out of the climate and ecological crisis. This crisis stems from excessive consumption of renewable resources. Can we influence this consumption by changing the system? Without a doubt ; but I think it can only influence a little. Because beyond the systems, there are men, and men, they are not easily changed; I gave you the example of the Soviet empire which wanted to create a new man, and which above all created gulags.

I see that men always want more. When they have a lot, they want more and waste it. When they have little they dream of having the means to have a little more; the only obstacle is precisely not having the means, which can happen in very poor regions. In this case they may be resigned, while waiting, but the dreams and the envy remain.
Do you have an example of a company where this is not the case? Where men who already have the basics stop working to take a nap. To avoid "anachronistic retro-projection bias", let's limit ourselves to the past century, this is a sufficient sample.
In short, will we one day see, massively, people who remain sober when they have the means to "have fun"? While we can see that a rich country like France is not even aware of being rich and is still asking for growth. We even tend, faced with a hermit monk, to consider this sobriety as abnormal, "unnatural", as it seems natural to us to consume as much as possible as long as we have the means.

You have fun calling me a Liberal-realist. You probably have a flexible definition of liberalism so that it can include someone like me who defends both GMOs and a decrease in the purchasing power of developed countries - but admitting to being unable to imagine how to organize such decrease without economic collapse and without revolt.
I am aware that understanding my position requires flexibility; try.
Otherwise try something other than liberal.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by GuyGadebois » 23/07/20, 16:55

realistic ecology wrote:
Ahmed wrote:...

Our world today was not shaped by 50 years of hunter-gatherers ....

We were hunter-gatherers from the Paleolithic (3,3 million years ago) until around 7500 years ago .... : roll: Our world today has seen its destruction really begin with sedentarization and agriculture.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by realistic ecology » 23/07/20, 17:01

GuyGadebois wrote:We were hunter-gatherers since the Paleolithic (3,3 million years ago)

No it wasn't "We"you confuse with others.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by GuyGadebois » 23/07/20, 17:04

realistic ecology wrote:
GuyGadebois wrote:We were hunter-gatherers since the Paleolithic (3,3 million years ago)

No it wasn't "We"you confuse with others.

Well let's see ... We are the WHOLE branch of humanity, not just what suits you. And even, we would start at Homo sapiens, we would be 292 years old and not "500" years of hunting-gathering. It is through this kind of "detail" that we realize that you are only here to constantly distill your foul propaganda.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by izentrop » 24/07/20, 01:48

realistic ecology wrote: by admitting to being unable to imagine how to organize such a decrease without economic collapse and without revolt.
No need to organize it, we are already undergoing it.
You may not have listened to Greta well, that's the subject, I'll remind you : Wink:
The biggest driver was conventional oil, which has been declining since around 2007 (dixit Janco).

The peril of humanity is global warming. We still haven't done anything to fight him, that's where Greta's speech is about.

The first stumbling block is ultra-simple and would be the establishment of a "carbon tax" which is respected by all governments, companies and individuals.
From there, anything is possible, but I fear that it will be the insurmountable obstacle that we will perhaps end up accepting when the world population has halved, but the "retroactive effects" (I no longer know the term exact) will be triggered and it may be several millennia before the earth is "habitable" again.
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 08:11

izentrop wrote:
realistic ecology wrote: by admitting to being unable to imagine how to organize such a decrease without economic collapse and without revolt.
No need to organize it, we are already undergoing it.
You may not have listened to Greta well, that's the subject, I'll remind you : Wink:
The biggest driver was conventional oil, which has been declining since around 2007 (dixit Janco).

The peril of humanity is global warming. We still haven't done anything to fight him, that's where Greta's speech is about.

it's not clear what you're saying, if we're already waning, what does Greta want? that we accelerate the decrease?
The first stumbling block is ultra-simple and would be the establishment of a "carbon tax" which is respected by all governments, companies and individuals.

Why is there a need for a tax, since the price is already rising naturally due to the depletion of resources?

From there, anything is possible, but I fear that it will be the insurmountable obstacle that we will perhaps end up accepting when the world population has halved, but the "retroactive effects" (I no longer know the term exact) will be triggered and it may be several millennia before the earth is "habitable" again.

when do you think the population will start to decrease? that too will inevitably lower consumption!
and how exactly do you define a "habitable" land?
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by izentrop » 24/07/20, 10:18

ABC2019 wrote:Why is there a need for a tax, since the price is already rising naturally due to the depletion of resources?
Leave it alone, with your state of mind, you can't understand. :P
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by ABC2019 » 24/07/20, 10:37

izentrop wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:Why is there a need for a tax, since the price is already rising naturally due to the depletion of resources?
Leave it alone, with your state of mind, you can't understand. :P


for once, your answer is not very scientific ... "state of mind" what does that mean? that you have to have some kind of "faith"?

the question is however simple! if a tax is effective in lowering consumption, then the natural price increase should be just as effective, right? because the consumer himself sees only the price at the pump, he does not know whether it is taxes or the price of raw material which is increasing.

this is also the implicit reasoning of the "conventional peak", there is still oil but more expensive, so that lowers consumption ...

Unless you think that consumption would continue to rise despite a high price, but then in that case there will not be a peak for a long time, and a tax would also be ineffective ...
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by izentrop » 24/07/20, 11:15

ABC2019 wrote:this is also the implicit reasoning of the "conventional peak", there is still oil but more expensive, so that lowers consumption ...
More expensive to produce but less expensive at the pump.
You seem to forget that the world economy operates under a supply / demand regime and that a period of crisis like the one we are currently experiencing encourages us to consume even more non-renewable products.

A tax on everything that is traded, calculated on the CO2 equivalent released or absorbed into the atmosphere would make it obvious that the word "renewable" has been overused today.

You see that you did not understand anything : Wink:
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Re: Greta facing the deputies




by Eric DUPONT » 24/07/20, 12:21

the problem is not the tax, it is what it finances. in this case: nothing
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