The "Evil" versus the "Good"

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Grelinette
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The "Evil" versus the "Good"




by Grelinette » 17/07/21, 15:29

Subject Ô how subjective and philosophical ... therefore subject to cleavage. : Mrgreen: .

Seeing everything that is happening around the world, especially in the anthropogenic environment, I have the feeling that the "bad" prevails over the "good".

It is a bit as if, and we had raised this question on econology for another subject, that of "the search for progress" registered in the genetic heritage of man, evil would also be naturally registered in our genetic heritage and would emerge instinctively when the good requires an (intellectual) effort to be implemented.

In the same vein (subject also eminently divisive) I was discussing with a friend who is passionate about court hunting, and we were talking about this "tradition" which consists in that all the guests and guests on a court hunt, and some either their age, attend the final kill, that is to say the release of the dogs which will rush on the low pieces of the beast which has just been killed and butchered in the wake before the eyes of the assembly of all ages; a sort of orgy in violence and blood! ....

For him (my friend) it is normal, natural and positive for very young children to attend this colorful show precisely to harden them, or even numb them to anything. empathy ou compassion, 2 faculties which would ultimately be crippling "defects" for the human societies in which we live. In short, an "acquired" insensitivity which would be an essential quality for success in the world of men where evil and aggression are more present than good and peace.

In short, are the "Evil", the "Good" at the same level in our world and in our human brains? ...

You have 2 hours ... and I collect the copies! : Mrgreen:
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by ABC2019 » 17/07/21, 18:41

It is clear that "evil" and "good" do not have a defined objective basis, even if we would all like to think that "our" conceptions are universal (and that we often spend a lot of energy to convince others). Even "universal" prohibitions (murder and incest) can be ritualized on "good" occasions ("holy" war, death penalty, ritualized incestuous unions as for the pharaohs). Each has its own moral framework - nevertheless "good" is often associated with an "order" (one could say negentropy "), and" evil "with a disorder (one could say entropy). / evil is it the reflection of the order / disorder duality, where in thermodynamics we show that order can only be built by producing an even greater disorder elsewhere?
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by Ahmed » 17/07/21, 22:24

All ancient cosmogonies strove to establish this thermodynamic framework to ensure the permanence of the coherence of their societies, intuitively understanding that too much entropy would eventually backfire. Indeed, this results in a difficulty in estimating the right dose of entropy necessary to maintain ad hoc negentropy: this was however the role devolved to the great mythological tales.
There are indeed two levels of entropy: a weak and a strong, so to speak. The strong constitutes the primordial rule which reigns in the universe: the maximum dissipation of energy (or maximum entropy), but this one also passes by absolutely general neguentropic processes and indifferent to living creatures, except on this point of the dissipative capacity ... The low level (and we come back to the point approached first) is that which would guarantee a "quality of life" (which is opposed to the concept of "standard of living" for all living beings and of the non-living, a kind of compromise which would keep negentropy at “low noise.” This, it must be emphasized, is not opposed to the fundamental principle of maximum dissipation, simply it is a matter of regulating over time (a car dissipates the same amount of energy by braking calmly to go from 80 km / h to 0 as by entering a wall!).
Unfortunately, these cosmogonies have been supplanted by a news which, thanks to many artifices, conceptually rejects any limitation and, believing to escape from vain ideologies, forges for that another from whole pieces which refuses any representation, since pure abstraction of thermodynamic determinism. referring only to itself. Brutally releasing the forces hitherto contained, they exert their destructive forces (at least from the point of view of the living which interests us directly) and will not spare their temporary agents. Evolution condemns these blind liberators, since having become useless, they will be condemned to disappear.
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by Grelinette » 18/07/21, 00:53

ABC2019 wrote:It is clear that "evil" and "good" do not have a defined objective basis, [...]
Even "universal" prohibitions (murder and incest) can be ritualized on "good" occasions ("holy" war, death penalty, ritualized incestuous unions as for the pharaohs). [...]

I am not convinced that "evil" and "good" have no definite objective basis. I like to think, but maybe it's to reassure me that there are "things" that are fundamentally "good", and others that are fundamentally "bad".

Of course there is the essential adage: "The misfortune of some makes the happiness of others" which seems to go in the direction of a subjectivity of "good" and "bad", but I place my reflection on another level , namely the observation that certain "things" are fundamentally done in a "malicious" framework, therefore "bad", and others the reverse, therefore "good", in particular in the human species, and I would go even to say "that" in the human species.

For example, in the animal world there does not seem to exist the notion of "torture", even if one can think that the cat which plays with a mouse which it has just caught makes it undergo a kind of torture ... But doesn't the cat just enjoy playing rather than seeing the mouse in pain?
(in other words, are empathy and compassion accessible to the cat?).

As for the religions which actually add subjectivity to "good" and "bad", I remain "agnostically" very cautious with respect to the precepts they impose. The simple fact of invoking the reason for "holy war" seems to me beyond debate, even if the debate is interesting in the sense that the holy war wants to give guidelines and justify them (good / bad) on the basis of the will of an unverifiable or even contradictory spiritual entity.

I often wonder about the deep motivation of certain human acts which seem "bad" to me ... and then, finally, to reassure myself I conclude that these malicious acts, therefore bad, are not motivated by anything justified nor of justifiable, and are ultimately only the expression of a mental disorder.
Criminals, such as those we have heard about in recent years (the Dutroux, Fourniret, Emile Louis, Nordahl Lelandais, etc.) explain their logic in knowing that for them what they do is "good" because it makes them feel bad. "good", but this reasoning is based on mental disorders.
The dividing line is not that easy to define, but I think it exists.

To give Ahmed an initial answer ... I have to reread his comment several times ... : Shock:
But I do not understand why introduce the principle of entropy to evoke the notions of "good" and "bad"!
That said, I understand that living societies, and therefore not only human, are naturally subject to permanent disorders and imbalances, and I imagine that these disorders can be a source of positive or negative consequences, but the notions of good and Evil are to be compared, in my opinion, rather to a spiritual and intellectual reflection than to a thermodynamic determinism ...
But I probably did not understand everything! :? (I will reread his comment tomorrow, my head rested and empty by the night, especially since ABC2019 also introduces this notion of entropy ...).
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by ABC2019 » 18/07/21, 08:20

Grelinette wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:It is clear that "evil" and "good" do not have a defined objective basis, [...]
Even "universal" prohibitions (murder and incest) can be ritualized on "good" occasions ("holy" war, death penalty, ritualized incestuous unions as for the pharaohs). [...]

I am not convinced that "evil" and "good" have no definite objective basis. I like to think, but maybe it's to reassure me that there are "things" that are fundamentally "good", and others that are fundamentally "bad".

if you take all human behavior, it is obvious however: for example the human sacrifices by wrenching the hearts of the Aztecs horrified the Spaniards, but on the contrary the Spaniards genocided the Amerindian peoples in the name of their faith, and this kind of contradiction has occurred in all colonial conquests. Your example of hunting is also quite telling. Even on this forum, there are clearly deep differences on what is "good" or "bad" (to take the most recent case, to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated, or conversely, to destroy a vaccination center in protests)

But in each case, these questionable actions are presented as being a necessary means to restore a disturbed order, a good because an evil necessary to find an even greater good. It is a human characteristic to be capable of abstract conceptions in the name of which he can do almost anything.

Of course there is the essential adage: "The misfortune of some makes the happiness of others" which seems to go in the direction of a subjectivity of "good" and "bad", but I place my reflection on another level , namely the observation that certain "things" are fundamentally done in a "malicious" framework, therefore "bad", and others the reverse, therefore "good", in particular in the human species, and I would go even to say "that" in the human species.

For example, in the animal world there does not seem to exist the notion of "torture", even if one can think that the cat which plays with a mouse which it has just caught makes it undergo a kind of torture ... But doesn't the cat just enjoy playing rather than seeing the mouse in pain?
(in other words, are empathy and compassion accessible to the cat?).

certainly, all mammals (and many vertebrates including birds) exhibit compassionate and helpful behaviors, but most often reserved for their young or their close congeners. After being shared or not by the animal world is not a good criterion. Killing the offspring of another father is common in lions, for example, not in humans. Conversely, there are also "good" behaviors in humans that have no equivalent in animals, and for good reason - giving money for example.
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by GuyGadeboisTheBack » 18/07/21, 12:57

Feminicide is peculiar to man. No other example in nature.
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by Ahmed » 18/07/21, 13:08

Good and evil are subjective translations of physical phenomena. Nothing very surprising about that, since the problem of all kinds is to position oneself in relation to the functioning of the world. It is much more delicate for the human species which is a "failed animal" which cannot count on an instinctual "instructions for use".
Despite the differences noted, it should be noted that, in a certain way, no one does evil for evil, but to seek a higher good which would justify the evil committed, at least according to its author ... : Mrgreen: This with a connotation all the more personal as the so-called civilization develops ...
It should also be noted that in the Christian tradition evil does not really exist, but is only an absence of good or an inability to achieve it (a bit like the notion of cold compared to that of heat in physics) .
Just as ancient civilizations solved the problem by hypostasis and sacrificing human lives to idols, ours refuses to take a stand, except in minor mode, and sacrifices all forms of life, as well as the non-living. , to an imagined fetish, abstract value, but with very real consequences that had never been achieved before.
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by sen-no-sen » 18/07/21, 18:30

Grelinette wrote:Subject Ô how subjective and philosophical ... therefore subject to cleavage. : Mrgreen: .
It is a bit as if, and we had raised this question on econology for another subject, that of "the search for progress" registered in the genetic heritage of man, evil would also be naturally registered in our genetic heritage and would emerge instinctively when the good requires an (intellectual) effort to be implemented.


"Absolute evil is when good fights another good" Howard Bloom
Evil does not exist in itself. This notion can only be defined through the interpretation of an observer within a given culture and with regard to the relation between the different phenomena involved.
To speak of "badly inscribed in the genetic code" hardly makes any sense because it would mean that there would be a fundamental substance at the origin of the evil, an evil which would itself be undermined (sic!) When it ended. to a happy ending, a shame!
It would be more objective to speak of the level of organization of living systems. The "evil" would thus be anything that makes it possible to reduce the internal cohesion of a system considered ... This joins the notion of entropy, entropy at the source suffering, but also life ...

The notions of good and evil appeared in culture with the rise of civilizations, correlated with the increase in the population having to cooperate to guarantee social cohesion in territories with limited surfaces.
The so-called "moral" religions (with commandments: Hinduism, Judaism, etc.) thus appear in history together with the increase in the caloric ration available per individual, and this in particular because of the improvement in agrarian methods.
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by gildas » 18/07/21, 21:32

Hi,
If one good fights another good, it is no longer a good : Cheesy:
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Re: "Evil" versus "Good"




by Christophe » 19/07/21, 00:04

Good subject! It will be necessary to refine the title ...

I have not yet read anything of your developments above but it is not the ideas that I miss on the subject ... all I can say coldly is that ...during a war there is only GOOD for GOOD ... (therefore the concept of good against evil militarily speaking ... mouahahaha) and that doing bad is much more socially grateful and rewarding than doing good in the level of social consciousness in which the vast majority of humanity lives...

You did not understand the 2nd part ... remember what money is ... it is only human labor time ... and absolutely nothing else!

How can we "venerate" the scrapings of billionaires who capitalize on the work of millions of human lives and dare to defend freedom, equality and fraternity? A certain Bouffon 1er does it regularly ... (while despising 99.99% of his people) ...

While there is only one modern slavery contract between these 2 worlds!


Amen!

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