Ireland said YES ... Are cooked carrots ????

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Is it appropriate to support the position of Vaclav Haus?

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louphil
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Ireland said YES ... Are cooked carrots ????




by louphil » 07/10/09, 12:32

The news fell a few days ago already, and I am surprised that there is still no reaction:

Indeed, after the disavowal of the elected officials for the French people in its vote against the TCE, Ireland ended up cracking after a unilateral bludgeoning of several months ... A very "beautiful" victory of YES, when the camp of the NO was denied all access to the media during the matraq ... uh, the campaign ...

That said, all hope is not lost, and the Lisbon Treaty (or TEC, it's kif ...) can not yet be implemented: The Czech President, Vaclav Haus, has not yet signed and brakes with both feet ...

So I have never tried to sound you out yet, "comrades" :? forumeurs, but here is the question:

Would you see any use in sending a letter of support to this gentleman?
If yes, what form should it take: individual or common with the signature of volunteers or sympathizers?

If so, I can possibly take care of its drafting ...
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by bham » 07/10/09, 15:52

I think Louphil, that it would be good to take stock of the ins and outs of the New Formula Treaty so that everyone can form an opinion on what awaits us.
Are you sticking to it? :D
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by louphil » 07/10/09, 19:44

Aaargglll !!! You hit or it hurts, Bham !!! :D A huge job in perspective !!! Especially if we have to decode from an opposing point of view et parting !! Especially since if I would rather have a tendency to opposition, I am above all a bit naive ...

If there was only one reason to give my rant, it is simply the rant that the elected officials of the "lower" people allow themselves:

- they refused the referendum treaty? Never mind, we force it through the assembly, the people's vote we do not care .... (France)
- they refused to ratify the treaty by referendum? Never mind, we will vote again as many times as necessary, until obtaining this ratification ... !!! (Ireland)

And if I'm not mistaken, I think there have been 1 or 2 other examples of this kind, notably in the Netherlands, if my memories are good ...

If it is not foutage of mouth, what should we call it ??? !!!

If only, only this vote was concerned !!! But alas, no !!! Do I recall the "debates" on GMOs? On the patentability of software? To quote only those !!! Once the votes in favor of these insanities, the vote, don't worry, you never hear about it again to go back !!! Because in general it is too profitable for those who started the procedure, even if it is to the detriment of the greatest number !!!

It is not so much the content that I question, but the way !
It is simply a rant against the anti-democratic attitude of our "elites" ...

That said, I am willing to stick to the task you offer, but not alone: ​​too much work! You help me ??? : Wink:
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by Obamot » 07/10/09, 20:05

The big problem with these drifts is that the "peoples" of Europe do not care, because all the decisions that are taken in Brussels are taken without their opinion being asked. Even the countries which had an interest in entering it end up being cut down, given that their "economic machine" is - in competitive comparison - not efficient enough.

Besides, it is well known. People don't exist ...

By cons if there had not been Europe and therefore the € uro, with this economic crisis. It is very likely that the world economy would have collapsed (these are economists who said so, so it is not sure that we can trust them blindly : Mrgreen: ).

But overall I am against a political Europe, with a President, a Minister for Foreign Affairs etc ...

Having Europeans speak with one voice would have positive sides, but it's far too dangerous, isn't it?

Image

Wouldn't it be better to let political vocations express themselves at the national level ... That would limit the risks and frustrations ... : Cheesy:
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by bham » 07/10/09, 21:16

louphil wrote:That said, I am willing to stick to the task you offer, but not alone: ​​too much work! You help me ??? : Wink:

Aaargglll !!! echoing your reaction, it is true that it is very opaque and it is also made for, wise lawyers can do it much better than us but it is also true that we can make say what we want a text like this one and act differently in fact.
Okay, I'll take a look at this if I have a little time.
Agree with you on the way, but it's a very fashionable method right now; it's like being elected ultimately gives all the power.
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by Capt_Maloche » 07/10/09, 22:21

Not easy

the Lisbon Treaty is unfortunately not what I expect from Europe, but it could be a starting point

For me Europe is:
- An identical minimum wage for all member countries
- A single currency
- A unique social security
- A single VAT
- A single debt (see the deletion of debt elsewhere ... :D )
- Food autonomy
- Industrial autonomy
- A single army with the same equipment
- Equivalent education (let's take the best from each country)
- Local languages ​​and a European language
- A culture preserved by member countries
- Etc.

Is this the Lisbon Treaty?
: Cheesy:
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by boubka » 07/10/09, 23:02

Wouldn't it be better to let political vocations express themselves at the national level ... That would limit the risks and frustrations ... Cheesy Grin

Are you sure that Europe is really warning us of this risk?
history is an eternal beginning ...
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by louphil » 07/10/09, 23:50

Bham, I did not begin to "bend" the Treaty, but I wrote a draft mail, which in any case I would send. Here is the content, in case some would like to correct / lighten and / or co-sign or even simply comment:



Sir,

Our French media would sometimes imply that you are an Anti-European.

I am (we are) for my (our) part, a convinced Pro-European and I should welcome the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by the Irish people. It still seemed, according to our media, that it was the last bulwark in the implementation of this text.


But after the announcement of the result, they signaled that the Czech people, by your signature, had still not ratified this Treaty, like the English people for that matter ...

You therefore represent the last resort to the opponents of the implementation of this text, which a large majority of French citizens (of which I was a member) had rallied, by refusing it by referendum.

As you rightly pointed out, during an interview after the publication of the results of the Irish consultation, the voice of the people is becoming more and more distant, tenuous, and manipulable in the face of that of the elites in place who tend to to be confused: "mandated by the people" and "all powers". The examples of France and Ireland are very representative, not to mention that of the Netherlands.

This state of affairs is particularly true in France and even more glaring at the European level, where the complexity of the functioning of the institutions suffers from serious ignorance by the average citizen (of whom I am).

I cannot foresee in advance the impact that this letter will have, but I suspect that, even if you are surely not the only elected in this current, your position must currently be rather uncomfortable, so much at the national level , than at European level.

Also, I allow myself (we allow ourselves) to send you this letter of encouragement to support you, at least in your attitude denouncing this theft of Democracy from the citizen.

Europe is a beautiful generous idea, so I can't believe we are against it for a moment. Whether you are against his perversion, yes, but I cannot imagine that we are against its construction in order to protect Man, in the same way that he builds his house ...

If I know very little about the exact content (like 90% of my fellow citizens) of the said Treaty, everyone agrees that it advocates an American-style Ultra-Liberalization, the devastating effects of which we see today, that we will see again tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow for worse, even if a few warning signs would make Ultras-Liberals say that the worst is over.
For your position with regard to the Treaty itself, also receive my (our) support, which I humbly ask you to accept ...


At Cap'tain,

Not easy

the Lisbon Treaty is unfortunately not what I expect from Europe, but it could be a starting point

No, it could be just a crossing point: there has already been Rome, Maastricht, Nice, etc ... And I don't have the impression that the meaning is right.
Don't forget 73! This is the year when the French State sold off its power to create its own currency! I'm not sure, but I think that Europe at the time pushed a little wheel, right?

As for the others of your wishes, we have them all! But the non-return clauses enshrined in the Treaty do not lead me to believe that this is possible quickly, or even possible at all ...

On the other hand, the Treaty is what it is, it has the merit of existing, and one point to take away from the detractors of this text is that nobody has ever bothered to propose something else, like alternative text. Or else, I am very ill-informed (not impossible)!
In short, I have the impression that the choices that we are offered are choices of fools, like: "it's that or nothing at all" ...
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by yannko » 08/10/09, 08:32

While chatting with my Czech friends, they told me that it is only a matter of time before Vaclav Klaus signs the treaty. He is under extreme pressure, and after two refusals, in general, if parliament puts it back on the table (which it will do with a 99% chance), he is under the pseudo "obligation" to sign.
Any support is always good to take anyway, and despite his mule head, I am afraid that V. Klaus is forced to return to the ranks (unless really to blow the kettle, it would be good to have change like that : Shock: ).

I travel a lot in Central and Western Europe. I was originally a convinced pro-European, I became anti-European when I saw what European reality is.
Of course, there are positives and advantages to sealing a union between different countries. But this is very little in comparison with the problems introduced by this same concept. I quote, among other things, quickly: destruction of local cultures and traditions, by normalization of everything, starting from money, passing through architecture, education, administration, ..., up to mentality even people :?, See also subject The city car of the future , the capitals of Central and Eastern Europe absolutely want to "Westernize", what a fatal mistake : Cry: !), destruction of jobs that were previously possible without diplomas (now illegal according to certain European texts :frown:), etc ... Everything that was interesting and good disappears, is crushed, becomes unnoticed in a standard without spices and without taste. What :? .
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by yannko » 08/10/09, 09:16

Le Monde wrote:
Polish President to sign Lisbon Treaty on Sunday
One of Lech Kaczynski's collaborators announced on Thursday October 8 on the Polish television channel TVN that Poland will sign the European Treaty of Lisbon on Sunday October 11. The Czech Republic will remain the last country not to have signed the text.

Source: The World Online, last minute



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