Artisans, merchants, I love you me either

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Christophe
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by Christophe » 19/03/09, 14:18

1 + ... : Cheesy:
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by Christine » 19/03/09, 14:34

I believe that the "training" for the creation of a company emphasizes too much the above by forgetting the concrete aspects of the profession


This is the difference between blabla and practice.

You only have to see the length of the posts to see those who practice: short, efficient and unadorned in short what it takes to spin a box ...

Another remark: it's not because a guy struts around in a big car that he earns a good living ... it's often rather because he eats pasta at home : Cheesy:

And finally for bham - whose frustration I understand - but who does not realize that a professional brings turnover for 20-30 years (or more) to his suppliers who therefore have an interest in pampering him more than an individual who can cost him more in paperwork, time, and potential unpaid bills compared to what he earns.

That's it, that's all, and it's not worth taking the lead.
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by Did67 » 19/03/09, 17:02

bham wrote:
I don't see it as a debate for or against artisans, but as a debate on the relationship between artisans and customers.
If it's more complicated, can you explain us?



The debate hardly interested me anymore ... I picked up ...

I would still like to answer in one sentence: I think there are craftsmen who are very good, who work a lot and deserve both their income and the capital they accumulate. And there are big salaups, who baclent work, take advantage of niches ... As there are foolish civil servants and others who decarassed themselves. As there are lazy workers and others devoted. There are pedophile priests and I met a humanist soldier, etc .... etc ....

So, nobody will be right or everyone will be right "in part", or for his particular case ... I retired quietly. There, I'm just answering a question. I therefore respect the debate.

It became, in my feelings, a debate to know if the craftsmen abuse or not ... And I say, and I maintain, it is more complicated than what I read ...
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by Did67 » 19/03/09, 17:18

Philippe Schutt wrote:
Did67 wrote:And a nuance on the capital: they pass it on to the heirs (without taxation from Sarko, it seems to me). I currently run a public training center. 30 employees. A budget of € 1 per year. I will leave everything when I retire

Of course, it's not your money that paid for the center. : shock:



Again, just a few words because I'm concerned.

The whole approach emerges in the "necessarily"!

And yet!

Initially, two people who do not inherit.

The two work, make their activity "prosper".

The craftsman ends up - perhaps - with a beautiful boutique ... and his children inherit. Even if he lived without the famous 4 x 4 which is often discussed here.

Now, on the other side, I speak for myself. I get loose (that's what I claim). The center thrives, the activity grows, the subsidies are obtained (by heavy files, for those who are part of the administration, they know), the employment grows, the users are satisfied ...

Whether I lived with or without a 4x4, my children inherit nothing. I didn't want to complain, I think I wrote it. I just wanted to say, be careful, you should NOT ONLY look at income (or level of income) ...


You say "necessarily, it's not your money that paid for the center".

In one of the cases (the craftsman), the money is generally directly household money (but it can also be public money - see the companies supplying the administrations and communities or the State) . It's no more "his" money. It is those generated by its activity.

In the second case, because training is largely "mutualized" in our country (this is not the case everywhere), it is household money via taxes ...

So me, the "inevitably", it does not follow from the source if we reason "where does the value of what made this possible?"

I don't want to be right. Besides, this seems utopian to me on this type of theme. I re-say, it's more complicated.

And I leave you. Neither out of spite, nor by "sulking". As I think it's more complicated, I think it's a discussion that won't bring me much ... that I go through anyway.
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by Philippe Schutt » 19/03/09, 19:18

C moa wrote:You're right and also how well we see walking capitalist utopia. Image
I think the truth is out there ....
After how many years of prosperity?
C moa wrote:Not necessarily not reductions charges or taxes (this is included in the leaf margin) but especially in terms of formation, operation or management tools.
The Agefos PME does this very well. Sales, accounts, windows, etc ... and what's more it's free. Finally financed by the training payment.
C moa wrote:I'm scared every time I discuss with artisans to see that with a little more organization and methods (ideas / tools stitched industry), they could save time in hardship and therefore money.
For my part, I am frightened by the energy lost in paperwork, checks, statistics etc ... in the big boxes.

C moa wrote:Some flexibility in relations with administrations would not be a bad either. Personally, I used the CESU and the CEA, if there were this type of tool for companies, they would save time !!! An example to be concrete, I set up last year in an association which I took care of the Associative Employment Check (CEA). It can be used in the employment of staff up to 9 full-time equivalents, so this can concern a number of SMEs or VSEs. The principle ?? You hire someone by simply making a check for the value of the net salary. The hiring declaration, the calculation and the payment of the charges, the documents for the declaration of the incomes ... and all everything is done automatically by the office of the CEA therefore no need for an accountant, two lines in the account book are enough .
To my knowledge this tool does not exist for artisans and AMHA it would save them a lot of time and hassle of paperwork. Now if you find that it is a bad idea, it does not matter, it is your accountant who is cash.
The idea is good, but as you said, it is not for everyone.
I can still propose another in the same kind, which we could apply to all companies: They pay the employee a salary high enough to cover everything, and he manages himself with his insurance.

: shock: Uh excuse me to ask your forgiveness but today there is no geographic limitation. It is even for this that we no longer find generalists or physiotherapists in our campaigns but they no longer know where to fuck in the PACA region ...
Sorry. indeed for doctors it is the numerus clausus, which is not geographical. The money pump remains.
I do not have your experience concerning the "real" business creation but in all the projects that we set up we have preliminary studies which are similar to a Business Plan, each project being in itself a "small" company .
Personally, I do not see how someone can embark on the assembly and especially the development of a company without having a minimum thinks about:
- Its activity: it is not because we love flowers and colors that one improvises landscape;
- Its geographical area;
- Target clients;
- Its suppliers;
- Its funding: the working capital required by AMHA prime example;
- Competition;
- ...

One of the reasons for being self-employed was to leave the office. I think if I had been asked all this I would have dropped ...
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by Philippe Schutt » 19/03/09, 19:21

Did67 wrote:In one of the cases (the craftsman), the money is generally directly household money (but it can also be public money - see the companies supplying the administrations and communities or the State) . It's no more "his" money. It is those generated by its activity.

Not. it is the money which he deprives himself of immediately to invest it.
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by Philippe Schutt » 19/03/09, 19:24

Woodcutter wrote:
Philippe Schutt wrote:
Christophe wrote:For example: Woodcutter rolls XM has 18 years !!

What we would not do to roll XM! [...]
I wonder how I should take ... :?

Well, you agree to ride in an 18-year-old case to be able to ride in XM. :D
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by Woodcutter » 19/03/09, 20:33

Philippe Schutt wrote:
C moa wrote:You're right and also how well we see walking capitalist utopia. Image
I think the truth is out there ....
After how many years of prosperity? [...]
Prosperity? For who ?


Regarding the questioning requested by CCIs before setting up a business, it is more to avoid creators "by chance" who in any case will not last long ...
Someone who is motivated and who knows a little bit about their field will not have too much trouble answering what is asked.
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by Woodcutter » 19/03/09, 20:37

Philippe Schutt wrote:
Woodcutter wrote:
Philippe Schutt wrote:
Christophe wrote:For example: Woodcutter rolls XM has 18 years !!
What we would not do to roll XM! [...]
I wonder how I should take ... :?
Well, you agree to ride in an 18-year-old case to be able to ride in XM. :D
That "I accept"? : Shock:
I don't do it forced and forced, you know ... Is it a flaw in driving in an 18 year old vehicle?

I don't see anything in current cars that would motivate me to buy new and it works very well. So I look forward to LOREMO ...
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by Christophe » 20/03/09, 01:52

+1 for Loremo but still believe you?

You risk driving with an XM 28 years old!
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