Voting Machines / Comment Citizens!

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nonoLeRobot
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by nonoLeRobot » 28/03/07, 15:21

In any case there is one who is opposed rightly is Bayrou :-)

http://www.recul-democratique.org/

Anyway time computer scientist, I do not see how we can check and be on a program does what it should do. That said, there are also 36 other ways to cheat but it is true that it seems particularly easy with a machine.
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by Other » 28/03/07, 16:52

Hello
It would however be simple to provide a sort of cash register of which we see the name of the candidate printed on a receipt behind a window and which the machine keeps "in its belly" for any subsequent control.


It is this method that uses some municipality to vote and this practice is tolerated only for municipal elections next towns but not yet accepted for elections of our members ..
Anyway an expensive elections costs and it makes work a bunch of people often unemployed, l earned money back into the government Pool Funding and for some it is as a sport, the days of elections ..
so it always takes a paper system numbered and registered to have a final control, otherwise there is no more democracy, it just remains to place a guy with a machine gun above the booth as in some countries,
must be monitored by the different part of the electoral sytem
Already that participation decreases éléction election in questions one must ask why this ..
Voters want change and the more it changes the more it is the same right / left here blue / red ... Many voters understand that those who elect it is not them who lead but the multinationals who pull the strings. ..and if he could he would create machines that vote would control their office, he already finance the election campaign of their candidate, often possess mediate and used subtly in favor of a candidate .. one should always vote the opposite of what is pushing us to vote, to prove the polls
This is what has just happened Monday quebec, the two major party intellectual speeches are made by cutting the grass a little young to populist discourse.
we are in a minority government and we are going to have to listen to it is composed with the other parties .. (finished passing laws to gagging ..
it's over the elections has overwhelming majority of votes is tight almost equal, this account by the voters, then talk me no electronics box without posibilitée recount, we saw how it happened in the most powerful country (defendant of human rights on the planet, beautiful example ...)

Another thing women who wear the veil (all waterproof) home is such the right to vote masked? this has all soulvé a polemic here for 25 people on 6 ..
the rule is being ogligé to identify parts have an identity
with his preferable but not compulsory photos.
Also have reasonable accommodations?
For regilious reasons we empty the world of the municipal swimming pool to make room for a few people in the swimming pool,
or some woman ask, happened to the urgency of getting only treated by a female surgeon?
or empty dance hall, leaving a prayer group?
Or ask froster windows in a Gymnasium hall because it bothers the view of some person for religious reasons.

I think it's not cold enough here when we had -25 and -30 we didn't hear about this ... (Damn global warming)

I want to make it clear that these are not racist remarks, it's just knowing how your different communities adapt in your country. Or rather like your country adapts to all these communities. In a steel mill when to put on a helmet with a big bandage on his head how employers are to adapt these helmets?


Andre
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gegyx
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by gegyx » 28/03/07, 21:47

I would point out to the attention of crispus andAndre, and insisting that when I wrote:
Sure, it would be clear progress against waste (paper)! : Mrgreen:
It was ironic…

This was obvious, given the opening of the subject, and my certain annoyance at the generalization of voting machines, which for me is the sign of a certain dictatorial drift.

For zero paper, this is the argument put forward by the radio ... When we see the waste of paper and transport that an election causes, we can only laugh.
(See also what piles up in a letterbox like advertising leaflets, every day).
---
In the polling stations, there are a few municipal staff, paid overtime, and a lot of volunteers. The spoilers are elected officials or volunteers.
These are young people, by acquaintance with the prefecture staff, who make their pocket money, by preparing the envelopes recapitulating the candidates with profession of faith and ballot paper, which are sent to each voter.
---
Andre- For the stories of religion: Swimming pool, doctors of the hospital, personnel of the public service, veiled teacher, there are cases. But in France, there is a majority consensus in the population, not to mix religion and republic. Politicians, journalists, civil servants, in schools, avoid "overt signs of proselytism" because it is prohibited. (Religious insignia prominently on the clothing, veil on the head of schoolgirls, specific attire, masked ball style, etc.)
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ThierrySan
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by ThierrySan » 29/03/07, 16:35

To continue in the direction of NonoLeRobot, I would say that I am starting to get fed up with hearing anneries in the media such as: "a completely reliable computer system!", "A completely secure secure Internet banking payment system!" , etc ... I spend some good and some not so good ...

I want to say that no system is 100% safe. Moreover, the Internet banking world proves it to us again, as well as the counters elsewhere ...
And that I find it completely absurd to put certain data on data processing, without that these cannot be controllable at any time by other means !!
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nonoLeRobot
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by nonoLeRobot » 29/03/07, 17:01

Be careful not to be told what I did not say, because internet payment or electronic banking is "safe". The problems almost always come from the user (like giving their code to a fake site, or responding to false emails, which offers you to earn tempting sums, not having an up-to-date computer system ...)

Because even if there is cheating or piracy, which can happen but is not so common. It is especially easy to spot it (style we were not delivered, we were charged more money than expected, etc.), so easy to see where are the possible flaws.

So no electronics or IT is not to be put in the trash, electronic payment has proven itself (and saves a lot of management costs).

The problem with the vote is that I don't see how to verify, or even if we realize a problem, once the vote is over, it's done. The idea of ​​keeping a paper trail may be a solution.
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ThierrySan
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by ThierrySan » 29/03/07, 17:51

ThierrySan wrote:
To continue in the direction of NonoLeRobot, ...

I don't see where I said that it was you who said something on these subjects ... I am expanding your subject on computer security with my criticisms.

I remain anchored on my positions regarding banking and the internet. There are many software that allows sniffing and controlling the bytes sent over the net through ip addresses. Then, there are other software which extract the expected information from these bytes: login, password, email address ...
Even if cryptography is very powerful, the past has shown us that all cryptography is decryptable, and this, by dint of hours spent on it ...
Now, the methods used today by number make it possible to limit the money available.
However, there remains the fact that we can always consult our bank accounts from home and even do certain manipulations from account to account. In the latter case, who tells us that a worm is not on our pc to recover the keyboard keys pressed, or even to be sniffed the frames sent?!?

Finally, for the voting machine, I agree with you.

Another important info: (info or intoxication ?!), I had the same type of contact yesterday on my cell phone. And something unusual, I had the instinct to check the net before calling back ... See the link below:

http://www.giiks.com/?2006/11/29
http://www.home-server.info/?m=20070313
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gegyx
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by gegyx » 29/03/07, 19:34

Vote on paper ballots as usual, with all participating citizen volunteers. They attend the count and are witnesses of the legality of the vote and guarantors for those who did not come.

Take a vote, with machines, very complicated, manufactured by a company which has been "watered" by a political group, where nothing can be verified, except through the intermediary of "specialists", which one cannot not asked you to choose. Frankly, I don't see the benefit.
To possibly accept this kind of machine, you imagine that a paper trail is needed, for the recount, in case of doubt.

You can easily understand, that the losers will systematically ask for the recount of the ballots, and they will be right, because all the previous ups and downs have been invisible to them. There can only legitimately be a doubt.

So, we summarize:
On the one hand, a vote with conventional paper ballots, counting with the participation of the population who is the guarantor of the result, and ready to accept any disappointment of the electoral results (because the chosen one is not that of their wish), since 'they were the actors and witnesses.
The only drawback is that it can take 4 to 6 hours to count. But it is final, sure and official.
On the other side, voting machines, imposed by a power in place, which costs a lot of money to manufacture and verify. With necessary security operations, and where it is necessary to have paper records, to appear serious.
The result of the vote is immediate, at the close of offices. But as there will be legitimately and necessarily contestation, there will undoubtedly be recount.
The result will be suspended, pending verification by "specialists" perhaps still. The final result will be closed and final, but much later than in the first primitive method, and there will always be a doubt.

Where is the advantage of the second method, if it ends with a counting like the first method?
Finally the count by machine, at the close of the polling stations will only have an approximate value of reality, and will only be one more survey, more closely in accuracy.

Finding interest in the second method is I dare say (chi, chi) ABRACADABRANTESQUE.
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I Citro
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by I Citro » 31/03/07, 15:00

Here is a petition circulating on the net:
Petition against the voting machines
Unfortunately the site is inaccessible today ... Big brother?
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Misterloxo
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by Misterloxo » 31/03/07, 16:57

it is true that trusting machines and entrusting them with one of our only "powers" as citizens ...

Counting by volunteers and witnesses ... is also the exercise of democracy.

If everything happens with a "black box" it is a little of our power that we are being stolen.
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gegyx
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by gegyx » 01/04/07, 01:20

For the petition, the citro bond is not successful.

Go here, it works. There is also the comment of the computer scientist who launched the protest.
Circulate. Thank you.

http://www.recul-democratique.org/
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