Recycling of synthetic fuel CO2?

[Remundo]

it is true that if carbon taxes were applied, the e fuels would have an advantage.

Nevertheless, from a physical point of view, this advantage will not be decisive if the process is ultra-energy-intensive in a world where energy will be expensive, even rare.

[Christophe]

There is definitely a reason....

Yes, I think I mentioned it above...

Did you read Chloe's article in detail? https://www.econologie.com/energie-ther ... ergetique/

[sicetaitsimple]

Except that in Europe at least, it will no longer be possible from 2027 not to pay a carbon tax, including for individuals.

Highly possible. But I don't see how that would particularly favor e-fuels (outside the aviation-type sector, etc.) compared to the much more efficient use of direct substitution of fossil fuels by electricity (assumed in both renewable case).

[NCSH]

it is true that if carbon taxes were applied, the e fuels would have an advantage.

Nevertheless, from a physical point of view, this advantage will not be decisive if the process is ultra-energy-intensive in a world where energy will be expensive, even scarce.

Not that much !

Just remember the figures from RTE concerning electricity production/consumption in France by 2050/2060 (the same for Europe with the figures from ENTSO E/G): it is only a question of increase to 700 or even 900 TWh, whether with a lot, a little or without nuclear power, compared to 540 on average during the previous decade.

In terms of producing abundant electricity at moderate costs, Western Europe is favored thanks to wind power: do we know that we, the French, are surrounded by 6 countries which will soon cross the threshold of 50 % of renewable electricity (Spain and Portugal, United Kingdom and Ireland as well as Germany and Denmark)?

As a reminder, the cost of electricity sold to individuals in Germany and Denmark had hardly increased between 2013 and 2020, at 30/32 c€/kWh.

[NCSH]

Except that in Europe at least, it will no longer be possible from 2027 not to pay a carbon tax, including for individuals.

Highly possible. But I don't see how that would particularly favor e-fuels ( excluding the aviation type sector,...) compared to the much more efficient use of direct substitution of fossil fuels by electricity (assumed in both cases to be renewable).

There is a dogma that only limits the availability of e-fuels to aviation.
In particular, a few green people accept only lip service, only for aviation ...

What to do for fishermen, farmers, construction, road and river transport, ...
In barely 30 years, will they be able to be satisfied with the constraints of higher costs, lower service-rendered (in particular autonomy) if they are forced to replace everything?

And this also applies in the same way to individual vehicles whose costs have almost doubled, with autonomy on motorways limited to 200 km, at best 300, unless you invest in a heavy ultra-profiled sedan.

This is the world as imagined by care bears who are intransigent worshipers of energy efficiency.

[sicetaitsimple]

In terms of producing abundant electricity at moderate costs, Western Europe is favored thanks to wind power: do we know that we, the French, are surrounded by 6 countries which will soon cross the threshold of 50 % of renewable electricity (Spain and Portugal, United Kingdom and Ireland as well as Germany and Denmark)?
As a reminder, the cost of electricity sold to individuals in Germany and Denmark had hardly increased between 2013 and 2020, at 30/32 c€/kWh.

You are making fun of the world a little, since you wrote a little higher: "However, the cost balances are not unfavorable by taking electrical energy of solar and tropical origin of 1 c€/kWh"

By the time the costs in Europe drop to 1c€/kWh, the chickens will have teeth. And almost all uses will be electrified.

[NCSH]

In terms of producing abundant electricity at moderate costs, Western Europe is favored thanks to wind power: do we know that we, the French, are surrounded by 6 countries which will soon cross the threshold of 50 % of renewable electricity (Spain and Portugal, United Kingdom and Ireland as well as Germany and Denmark)?
As a reminder, the cost of electricity sold to individuals in Germany and Denmark had hardly increased between 2013 and 2020, at 30/32 c€/kWh.

You are making fun of the world a little, since you wrote a little higher: "However, the cost balances are not unfavorable by taking electrical energy of solar and tropical origin of 1 c€/kWh"

By the time the costs in Europe drop to 1c€/kWh, the chickens will have teeth. And almost all uses will be electrified.

Photovoltaic electricity production costs in southern Europe will not fall below 1.5 or even 2 c€/kWh, or even more in continental Europe. These are large-scale solar parks, no production by individuals for self-consumption (8 to 10 c€ currently). But everyone will not be able to have part of their production at home (50 to 60% of individual houses)

This is the current and planned cost hierarchy. Urban consumers pay much more.

Almost all uses cannot be 100% electrified but only partially such as hybrid heat pumps, cooking food with propane bottles, etc.

And many other areas leave something to be desired as I wrote previously ...

[sicetaitsimple]

Photovoltaic electricity production costs in southern Europe will not fall below 1.5 or even 2 c€/kWh, or even more in continental Europe. These are large-scale solar parks, no production by individuals for self-consumption (8 to 10 c€ currently). But everyone will not be able to have part of their production at home (50 to 60% of individual houses)
This is the current and planned cost hierarchy. Urban consumers pay much more.

What is "surprising" is that you seem to consider that there would be two worlds in the production of electricity, the "old world" that we currently know, which would harvest a few crumbs of growth thanks to the electrification of certain uses and a totally disconnected "new world", based on huge off-grid power stations solely dedicated to the production of e-fuels.
There is no reason for it to happen like this, the investments will go where they are most profitable and they will be compared to the forecast electricity costs at time T and place E.
That there are subsidized demo projects for e-fuels, that's for sure, there will be some, but when it comes time to move on to the industrial phase (I remembered that 10GWp or a little less than 10000ha would be a correct size according to you), with a target price of 1c€/kWh, there is a risk of not jostling at the gate...because there will certainly be much better elsewhere.

[NCSH]

Photovoltaic electricity production costs in southern Europe will not fall below 1.5 or even 2 c€/kWh, or even more in continental Europe. These are large-scale solar parks, no production by individuals for self-consumption (8 to 10 c€ currently). But everyone will not be able to have part of their production at home (50 to 60% of individual houses)
This is the current and planned cost hierarchy. Urban consumers pay much more.

What is "surprising" is that you seem to consider that there would be two worlds in the production of electricity, the "old world" that we currently know, which would harvest a few crumbs of growth thanks to the electrification of certain uses and a totally disconnected "new world", based on huge off-grid power stations solely dedicated to the production of e-fuels.
There is no reason for it to happen like this, the investments will go where they are most profitable and they will be compared to the forecast electricity costs at time T and place E.
That there are subsidized demo projects for e-fuels, that's for sure, there will be some, but when it comes time to move on to the industrial phase (I remembered that 10GWp or a little less than 10000ha would be a correct size according to you), with a target price of 1c€/kWh, it may not be rushing at the gate...because there will certainly be much better elsewhere.

At a pinch on Venus which is closer to the Sun!

For the rest, in Europe and in France, for RTE it is a 30 to 70% increase in electricity production/consumption, these are not crumbs...

Investments will also go where there are consumers/users consuming/using!

[sicetaitsimple]

Investments will also go where there are consumers/users consuming/using!

So a priori not in desert or semi-desert areas which would be technically the most appropriate.