Roasted Pellets (Black Pellet): the new threat?

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Did67 » 31/07/18, 17:20

sen-no-sen wrote:The main criticism that can be made of pellet is that we have transformed a free source into a paying product whose ecological purpose is particularly dubious.


Certainly.

But under the "logical", theoretical and undoubtedly implacable analysis (perhaps true, but let me doubt that a mind, even as sharp as yours, encompasses the whole of " alive "), what do we do ???

- free: for who can (technically, health, skills) do their logs! Otherwise, per kWh cleared, the log purchased, even from the "black" (in parallel circuits, lumberjacks or farmers who do this in addition to their activity), is more expensive than the pellets ("clear").

- the share of embodied energy, in "reasonable" circuits (buy from a producer located even 100 km from home), in the pellets is low: a few% (this mainly depends on the drying technique - with biomass, or with gas) ...

- Consumption of electricity also: I consume, with a large freezer (vegetable requires), an electric oven, a CESI with electric circulator, still 2 400 kWh / year, including boiler (I left 3 700 there is a decade). And of course, I chat a lot on the internet (the proof) and put videos on Youtube (I do not know if the source is reliable, but it would represent 9% of the domestic electricity consumption? Without doubt more than my boiler.)

There would therefore be, from my point of view, a few nuances to add to your comments. At the risk that "thought" loses its "aesthetic and radical beauty".

But above all, at 65, cardiac, what are you doing ??? How do you heat yourself ??? Concretely please - not sodomizing Drosophila. This interests me, because I thought a lot before acting. And your words, in their radicality, hit me! I excluded any technique based on electricity with a nuclear dominance (a choice that can be qualified as "political", which I assume; one can also see a concern for consistency: I have no desire to have a nuclear power station behind my vegetable garden, so I don't impose it on others!). I then prioritized "decarbonization". Without being naive about the "limits" of my choice (a condensing pellet boiler - with a particle emission rate close to oil-fired boilers - it does not reach gas, but is "neutral", at 90% , in fossil carbon), silo for bulk pellets, 2 years of storage capacity to be able to adjust according to the price curve). Of course, without electricity it doesn't work. But like any boiler, any modern heating circuit with circulators! I am considering a "back up" by a group.

Finally, if you could support the PARTICULARLY dubious ecological purpose. I am of course talking about a really existing world and the choices available to a person. Not the "into the wild" solution (morbid by the way).
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by sen-no-sen » 31/07/18, 18:36

Did67 wrote:Certainly.

But under the "logical", theoretical and undoubtedly implacable analysis (perhaps true, but let me doubt that a mind, even as sharp as yours, encompasses the whole of " alive "), what do we do ???


I believe that you make a lot of inferences (1), I did not mention the idea that the pellets would be a bad source of energy, I spoke of "main criticism", to bounce back on the remarks ofAhmed.
I know many people equipped with pellets and who are happy with their devices, as far as it allows to replace a source like fuel oil is a very good thing.
However in a general framework towards an energetic transition from fossil to ENR (but the XNIXXth century will still be largely dependent on fossil fuels) one can allow a criticism in the sense that all its devices as for the bio moreover are not hindered by the flaws of industrialization ...
Otherwise the pellet has the advantage of significantly reducing pollutant emissions compared to wood / log (up to 300 times less according to my memories).



There would therefore be, from my point of view, a few nuances to add to your comments. At the risk that "thought" loses its "aesthetic and radical beauty".


Your remark is interesting and it confirms the problematic of industrial countries a little: I would say "radical" words! : Lol:
It would be necessary to indicate to me or register my radicality (!), Especially since the term has a particular content for some time ... : roll:
If we want to avoid a major ecological collapse in the course of this century we will have to go much further than my poor "radicalism" ... otherwise we will all go to war, willingly or by force!

But above all, at 65, cardiac, what are you doing ??? How do you heat yourself ??? Concretely please - not sodomizing Drosophila. This interests me, because I thought a lot before acting. And your words, in their radicality, hit me! I excluded any technique based on electricity with nuclear dominance (a choice that can be described as "political"


Excluding all nuclear-based energy may be another form of radicalism in the sense that nuclear fear is essentially an ideological construct (2). I want to clarify that I am nucléoseptiqueThat is to say that I consider this source of energy (fission) as a simple adjustment variable within industrial countries and that role in the fight against global warming will remain anecdotal.
However, the inhabitants of big cities can not all heat themselves with pellets for reasons of air quality, on the other hand nuclear power can very well make use ... pollution by combustion of wood makes thousands of times more dead than nuclear, but it's less Hollywood.

Finally, if you could support the PARTICULARLY dubious ecological purpose. I am of course talking about a really existing world and the choices available to a person. Not the "into the wild" solution (morbid by the way).

Into the wild it is a caricature, and then of memory it is a story which is more in relation with a flight from itself than from a model for world ecology.
A livable world is a world at equilibrium, so it induces a sharp decline in the industrialized countries, ie a decrease in GDP of about 50 see 60%, if the pellet boiler allow such a state of facts is very good!


(1) It is the fact of concluding of a fact starting from element most often subjective.
(2) With regard to other sources of energy such as wood, gas, coal and oil, nuclear power does not weigh much in the balance, the same can not be said for its media impact and its immense power. anxiety.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Did67 » 31/07/18, 22:08

Yes, you're right. Your initial sentence ["The main criticism that we can make of the pellets is that we have transformed a free source into a paid product whose ecological purpose is particularly doubtful.
A bag of pellets usually travels around a hundred km in a truck before it ends up burning in a boiler which itself often consumes a not insignificant quantity of electricity, or even which does not work in the event of a power failure! "
] disturbed me a bit, about a choice I made. And that made me think a lot, because it was not simple. And which is only the "less bad choice that I found", in 2008. Hence without endowing this "susceptibility" in the face of something perceived as a cookie-cutter judgment.

"Main review" put me on the wrong track. A "main" review (in the sense, the biggest one can find) is not necessarily a "big" review. And it is even less prohibitive. This was reflected in the caveat that you put immediately after ["This does not mean that the use of pellets is to be avoided ..."]

By radicality I meant nothing other than the lack of nuance that I perceived. I have long sought information on emissions, on the electrical consumption of the boiler, on the gray energy of the pellets ... It is obviously not "all white".

On nuclear power, by "political choice", I clearly implied that it was, for me, an irrational decision. I think that there are, in the face of nuclear power, only two possible choices:

a) absolute confidence in the genius of man and therefore the "certainty" that nothing serious will happen, that everything is planned, that it has been studied, etc ...

b) doubt, and therefore the "feeling" that a reactor can blow up; that's my case ; therefore I would not want such a thing on the other side of my hedge; and therefore, trying to be coherent if not rational, I would like not to use nuclear current so that someone else does not find such a device on the other side of his fence since I participated in the creation of a "request". Beyond this rather ethical aspect, there would be the whole debate on the available resource, on the storage of waste, on the relevance of the sector, on a necessary "bunkerization", on the dependence of a few rare large capitalist groups ( much more than roasted pellets, which are gnognote next door) ... But not here. We have already given!
1 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Ahmed » 31/07/18, 22:56

Although the question is not addressed to me, I allow myself 8) to answer you, Did, on certain points.
The radicality of thought must be understood in two ways:
1- In the strict and etymological sense, it is a question of thinking, and if possible of acting, on the root causes, ie at the root and not to play on the adjustments of the consequences: methodologically it is an unassailable position.
2- In view of the necessary concessions of everyday life, it is important to clearly situate where we are in relation to the requirements of the theoretical model; this trivial aspect should not be an obstacle to the necessary theoretical construction, but, by grace, distinguish the two aspects which also cover the duality of the general and the particular!

On the question of the fears aroused by nuclear power, as opposed to the risks of other energies *, I think that the subjective assessment of the risk lies in large part in the same phenomenon that we observe in the opposition between "developed countries" "and" lagging "countries: the first to have strict environmental standards, the second to help us by getting rid of our waste; it is the whole opposition between what is near and what is far. If we transpose this on a social level, the dangers ** of conventional energies concern the workers or employees of these industries, while a massive radioactive leak would overcome the social barrier *** and would also strike those who are usually spared from this kind of trouble ...

* I take this opportunity to note that the trades of the forest (in the sector of exploitation) are classified as very dangerous by the MSA ...
** I am talking about immediate or visible dangers.
*** In the sense that we are talking about the species barrier.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by sen-no-sen » 31/07/18, 23:06

When I mentioned the dubious side of the pellets I was not aiming at the substance itself which presents an excellent ratio efficiency / emission but rather the introduction of these inside the economic world and through the liberalism.
What has been observed in the organic sector is to be seen in the field of pellets: from a virtuous product that ends up becoming an ersatz in a short time due to the pressure of the markets and the fall of the rate of profit .
This is the case of the Spanish organic that has bio only the name and it is the same thing with the pellets: one finds now Romanian pellets coming from Transylvania (which should not be the taste of Dracula!) transport by truck.In such a case I am not persuaded of the energy balance of the case!
When does Indonesian pellet trade fair?
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Ahmed » 01/08/18, 09:07

When does Indonesian pellet trade fair?

Thanks to the interesting characteristics of the roasted pellet, probably soon! It would even be possible to present it as an effective and virtuous way of fighting forest fires that are a plague in this part of the world ...
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Did67 » 01/08/18, 09:45

Ahmed wrote:
The radicality of thought must be understood in two ways:
1- In the strict and etymological sense, it is a question of thinking, and if possible of acting, on the root causes, ie at the root and not to play on the adjustments of the consequences: methodologically it is an unassailable position.
2- In view of the necessary concessions of everyday life, it is important to clearly situate where we are in relation to the requirements of the theoretical model; this trivial aspect should not be an obstacle to the necessary theoretical construction, but, by grace, distinguish the two aspects which also cover the duality of the general and the particular!



Indeed !

That's what I'm trying to do with the Lazy Potager:

a) a certain radicalism in the way of approaching gardening, conceptually ("change of paradigm")

b) a necessary relativity in the concrete approach, the implementation ("to each his own vegetable garden for the lazy"), which, even with me, is not stable.

That's to say if I agree.

I explained myself as to my reaction to sen-non-sen. I was in b). A decision, ten years ago, long considered. And expensive: 10 euros of investment (which I have not yet completely "recovered" by the savings, the price of fuel oil having very quickly been below my calculation assumptions). And there, a paragraph where I was pointed out that anyway it has become a business (so it's bad - as opposed to free) and that there is a particularly - sic - dubious ecological purpose. Here I am hit head on, complicit in an action "particularly" dubious from an ecological point of view. I did not perceive that we were in the a)
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Did67 » 01/08/18, 09:53

sen-no-sen wrote:When I mentioned the dubious side of the pellets I was not aiming at the substance itself which presents an excellent ratio efficiency / emission but rather the introduction of these inside the economic world and through the liberalism.
What has been observed in the organic sector is to be seen in the field of pellets: from a virtuous product that ends up becoming an ersatz in a short time due to the pressure of the markets and the fall of the rate of profit .
This is the case of the Spanish organic that has bio only the name and it is the same thing with the pellets: one finds now Romanian pellets coming from Transylvania (which should not be the taste of Dracula!) transport by truck.In such a case I am not persuaded of the energy balance of the case!
When does Indonesian pellet trade fair?


These questions are excellent.

Nevertheless, today, what do I do?

I take the risk of eating "organic" when I cannot produce "more than organic" in my vegetable garden [which in itself is proof that I see the limits of "organic" which I also call conventional or intensive ) because it is despite everything that in the trade or on the markets I find less worse. With the exception of pure "bobology": by that I mean such minor thing whose "organic" display (sometimes corresponding to compliance with standards, real) is only of interest to multiply the prices by 5. .. There, I am in opposition.

I take the risk of acquiring a pellet boiler, even if tomorrow (I hope the day after tomorrow) the industry will be in the hands of TotalFinaElf or Engie.

To go in the direction of less dependence of nuclear electricity, I install a CESI. Even if there, I border the bobology mentioned above. I plug the LL and LV on it.

Here we are in b). Because while waiting for death, we must live well, and breathe. Reject CO². Eat biomass, etc ... And make sure that it is not that sad!

[edit: I add that to limit my dependence on nuclear energy, although I have a fairly severe heart, I do not have an air-conditioned room - I juggle with the closing of the windows and the night refreshment, in a house that luckily has a beautiful inertia - concrete slabs, walled concrete slab walls, external walls in bisotherm blocks (pozzolan blocks) ...]
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Ahmed » 01/08/18, 12:55

Beyond a moderation of consumption, the answers are indeed modest at the individual level and, as I said previously, this can only influence very marginally since the collective frameworks are determining. There is, however, a significant moral satisfaction to withdraw from acts in accordance with his convictions and secondly to express them, as you do, to bring other people to another vision of things. Efficiency is, in any case, not an ethical criterion.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Roasted pellets, the new threat?




by Did67 » 01/08/18, 15:13

Ahmed wrote:... There is however a significant moral satisfaction to withdraw from acts in accordance with his convictions and on the other hand to express them, as you do, to bring other people to another vision of things. Efficiency is, in any case, not an ethical criterion.


And more :

- I think that a certain form of "deep" well-being is linked to being coherent [it does not change anything for the world, but everything for yourself]

- I think it is easier to "bring it back" when we have sought this consistency [otherwise, we are just blabbing - there is no lack on the internet]

- and therefore, we have more chance of training others [and suddenly, a person who modifies his practices modestly, that does not change anything; but if many of us change modestly, by ripple effect, within limits accessible to many, the overall effect is much greater than that obtained by a few extremists who take drastic individual measures - you have noted: j have avoided "radical"! - but will remain marginal]
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "biofuels, biofuels, biofuels, BtL, non-fossil alternative fuels ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 110 guests