Clean fuel for aviation

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
Other
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 3787
Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
x 12




by Other » 13/12/07, 22:09

Hello

You are not an aircraft pilot it seems, me if ...



Being a pilot does not mean having a good knowledge of aircraft structures as well as engines, propellers, etc.
I know many pilots who never unscrew a candle to remove the pellets from the 100LL,
and even that some do not know how to blow tires.
An airline pilot with 10000 hours may never have put fuel on an airplane.
I know others who fly without a patent and who dismantles their entire engine : Cheesy:
Back to our aircraft diesels
Several diesel are currently on aircraft engines, more in France, in America rather rare.
But the question of oil and temperature, for small planes which walks most of the time at between 2000 feet and 8000 feet
the temperature does not affect much, despite it sometimes -25 at home.
the oil added to the kerosene is only for lubricating the injection pump on mechanical pump models, the Thielert electronic injection engine does not need to add oil in the kerosene, it is the engine that is encountered on planes currently certified, and which makes long discussions each time there is an engine failure often electrical cause ..

For amateur builders, they prefer to keep mechanical pump technology
http://delvion.free.fr/


and the prototypes "Zoche


To my knowledge the Zoche 2 stroke has not been placed on any aircraft and the designer does not want to sell it (I know it for having made steps to buy one) Yet every year in Oshkosh (the aircraft manufacturers' check ) it has a kiosk with a static engine .. most of the current diesel engines, on aircraft are 4 stroke (there was the Junkers Jumo an engine in the 40s)
the rare two times little known on planes
Image


Image

For the Wilksch Wam160
89hp at 2300rpm 21litres of diesel
For a Lycoming o-290 D2
87 hp at 2200 rpm 24 liters (modified to 20 liters)
and it runs on automotive fuel 7,5 compression ratio


Andre
Last edited by Other the 14 / 12 / 07, 04: 10, 7 edited once.
0 x
User avatar
Flytox
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 14141
Registration: 13/02/07, 22:38
Location: Bayonne
x 839




by Flytox » 13/12/07, 22:26

Hello Chatham

The following link talks about NK-93 Kuznetsov as a machine from 1980 ...... : Shock:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouznetsov ... %A9t%C3%A9)

(If the link does not work, type NK 93 kuznetsov into Google.)

The speed record for a propeller zing is 528.33 mph, or around 850 km / h.

http://www.phy6.org/stargaze/Fflight.htm

It must be an improved version; 950 km / h that seems a bit much for propellers. A large fan diameter = usually a good performance but with a reduced speed.
To have !!! : Mrgreen:


A+
0 x
Reason is the madness of the strongest. The reason for the less strong it is madness.
[Eugène Ionesco]
http://www.editions-harmattan.fr/index. ... te&no=4132
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 14/12/07, 09:30

Image

haha: we recognize the BOSCH injection pump in blue!
it is a beefy, with turbo connection.

that, it rolls at 50% vegetable oil without modification! in winter, and 75% in summer!

sacred PSA engines! :D
0 x
Chatham
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 536
Registration: 03/12/07, 13:40




by Chatham » 14/12/07, 11:01

Flytox wrote:Hello Chatham

The following link talks about NK-93 Kuznetsov as a machine from 1980 ...... : Shock:

The speed record for a propeller zing is 528.33 mph, or around 850 km / h.

It must be an improved version; 950 km / h that seems a bit much for propellers. A large fan diameter = usually a good performance but with a reduced speed.
To have !!!


A+


Just for André's info: I forgot to mention that I am also a former aero mechanic on medium-tonnage turboprop (military) planes, so we can say that I know "a little" how an airplane works (or a helicopter), including piston engine (Wright 3350, Snecma Bristol Hercules (yes it's old, but I'm not very young either) : Mrgreen: , but also Rotax 912, Jabiru 2200 and the 2 ulm times ...) : Lol:

Good to return to the Kuznetsov NK-93 engine: I suppose you have already heard of propfan? It is a very special counter-rotating propeller because its blades, unlike those of a conventional propeller, are designed to operate in supersonic mode. Tests were made in the USA in the 80s and an engine developed by general Electric and installed for testing on an MD81: the cruising speed with this engine came out at mach 0.8 which corresponds to ~ 900km / h (the speed of sound (mach) varies according to the atmospheric pressure). This engine allowed fuel economy of 20 to 30% compared to a conventional reactor, but unfortunately has revealed insoluble problems of vibration and noise in the cabin, which explains its abandonment.
The Russians and Ukrainians have long been the great propeller specialists with in particular their strategic bomber Tupolev 95 capable of 900km / h when cruising with its 4 engines of 12000hp each driving conventional counter-rotating propellers of 6m in diameter! (almost as fast as a B52, but consumes considerably less fuel) ...
Kuznetsov resumed the studies of the principle of propfan by improving it and solved the problems of noise in the cabin and also of safety in the event of blade breakage adding a titanium fairing, which gives the engine an aspect of a jet engine. large diameter blower. The tests were carried out on a fairly old Russian plane, an IL96 I think ... the propellers are variable pitch: on the photo they are in "flag" (I used imageshack because apparently that of the site has trouble with the filename ...)
The NK-93 has 18 tonnes of take-off thrust ...
Image
Last edited by Chatham the 14 / 12 / 07, 11: 47, 1 edited once.
0 x
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 14/12/07, 11:45

Chatam, have you ever seen in your career as a mechanical airplane an airplane running on diesel?
have you ever tried to run a diesel engine with oil?
0 x
Chatham
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 536
Registration: 03/12/07, 13:40




by Chatham » 14/12/07, 11:55

jonule wrote:Chatam, have you ever seen in your career as a mechanical airplane an airplane running on diesel?
have you ever tried to run a diesel engine with oil?


Yes, a British Europa and also a Thorp with a Wiksch engine (2 stroke 120hp engine), a Jodel DR400 with a Thielert engine (Mercedes Benz aviated) and a Cessna 182 with an SMA Morane Renault engine (but I did not work Otherwise), at Le Bourget, there is a very beautiful Clerget star engine on display: a work of art, and the worst is that it was also of impressive reliability!
A German friend runs on French fries oil with his Mercedes 300D: he has 2 tanks: a small one for diesel to start and heat, then he switches to 100% oil on the big tank fitted with an electrical resistance for reheating + a filtration jar also with heating (otherwise the injection pump leaks like a basket), in short, not a DIY mickey ... a little complicated, but it works well and smoke-free (but with smell) ... but not for short trips because of the heating delay, and the guy has a professional (expensive) micro filtration installation at home (he stores the filtered oils in 200L drums)
0 x
jonule
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2404
Registration: 15/03/05, 12:11




by jonule » 14/12/07, 14:23

well me it's the same for 4 years I used used oil filter but with 5µm fabrics, 8 € has cost me for 2 years always the same!
on PSA 1.9 TD bosch pump I run 100% oil but I don't start on diesel on oil!
injectors at 175 bars of origin, added a pre-wash pump and electric heater on diesel filter.
it is only in winter when I put 10 to 20% of diesel according to the outside T ° C, knowing that the best is chuaffage oil ...
it is therefore not bi-fuel but mono-fuel!
on my site:
http://www.nrjrealiste.fr/oil/mono.html

for your information, the 300D can run at 50% without modification in winter, 75% in summer, for + just raise the injectors to 180 bars, add a pre-wash pump and an electric heater on diesel filter
8)

but I think it's an abberation to fly by plane, so from there to run in oil .................
0 x
Other
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 3787
Registration: 17/03/05, 02:35
x 12




by Other » 14/12/07, 17:08

Hello
For Chatman

I also know a little bit about planes, I've been in it for 45 years.
also a Thorp with an engine


A torpedo T18 already with a Lycoming o-320 is rather capricious to pilot, to return with a little cross wind, in lane in a field that must be less funny.
Now walk 100% oil on an airplane I think I would do a diesel dilution and put a 2 diesel filters with selector
I also have around 20000 km on a 300D 5 cylinder running exclusively on recycled oil, given the number of diesel filters I passed at the start (poor decantation of the oil) I will think twice with an airplane that flies for hours in the forest.

No problem with the pump leaking with the 300D .. I work with two tanks and a 1 liter feeder heated with engine antifreeze, and a 1000w element on the mains before starting (if necessary)
For the plane with the number of breakdowns that I had, Segment broken piston stripped, icing, gear of mag Bendix broken, exhaust valve fell in the engine, and I pass for the minors. So if I were to run on oil, I think I would do a magazine on the fuel filter.

Currently on airports if you fly diesel, either you transport your diesel and you fill up in the can, or you take kerosene if there is any, not sure that you will find it on all the small runways,
Already operating at 100LL not always available.
So this limits the pilot to long trips, although these small planes, the usual use is rather 600km around. occasionally a 1200km in the day.
For local use 1 hour around its base the oil could be livable and this kind of flight that we do most often
Andre
0 x
Chatham
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 536
Registration: 03/12/07, 13:40




by Chatham » 14/12/07, 17:11

jonule wrote:well me it's the same for 4 years I used used oil filter but with 5µm fabrics, 8 € has cost me for 2 years always the same!

for your information, the 300D can run at 50% without modification in winter, 75% in summer, for + just raise the injectors to 180 bars, add a pre-wash pump and an electric heater on diesel filter
8)


I don't know how you manage to filter hundreds of liters of oil without pressure (don't be in a hurry!) And 5 microns is not fine enough for an injection pump whose internal clearances are 1 micron: the diesel filter must clog up fairly quickly I imagine ...
the German in question has done more than 800km with his MB and given the number of km he hits per year, he cannot afford DIY that works "roughly" : Cheesy:
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79323
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11042




by Christophe » 14/12/07, 17:26

Uh the fuel filters of the hdi are at 2 microns big max (or rather big min) if I don't get it wrong?
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "biofuels, biofuels, biofuels, BtL, non-fossil alternative fuels ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 178 guests