Fuel E85 to 85% bioethanol (ETBE?) To 2007

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
User avatar
Willaupuis
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 83
Registration: 02/08/05, 22:03
Location: region of Tournai

Fuel E85 to 85% bioethanol (ETBE?) To 2007




by Willaupuis » 27/09/06, 07:23

this Tuesday morning by watching on France2 the telematin broadcast, these tell us that in 2007 a new bioethanol fuel will be available in the + -80cent euro, it would be 85% of vegetable origin ,,,, it is the farmers who will be happy, after Brazil France launches ....
0 x
if everyone agrees is that people thought
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 78783
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10838




by Christophe » 27/09/06, 08:47

Important question: is it bioethanol or ETBE?

From an "ecological" point of view, the difference between bioethanol and ETBE can be compared to the difference between pure oils and diester ...
0 x
User avatar
gegyx
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6769
Registration: 21/01/05, 11:59
x 2758




by gegyx » 27/09/06, 11:06

Yes, the existing engines will have to be transformed, mixed fuel cars will be released next year (Saab, etc.), with no financial surplus.
On France Info, they announced a price around 0 €.
If the car consumes more, the price gain will not be obvious ...
Especially, if there is no state aid for the modification of the carburetion.
And as it is the cash that first moves behavior, especially in times of crisis ...
0 x
User avatar
bob_isat
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 290
Registration: 26/08/05, 18:07




by bob_isat » 27/09/06, 18:38

Christophe wrote:Important question: is it bioethanol or ETBE?



That's the whole point!
especially that to produce 100 L of etbe you only need 47L of ethanol, the rest being very dirty fossil ...
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 78783
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10838




by Christophe » 27/09/06, 19:05

In my opinion it is ETBE (since ethanol is "banned" in France ... at least at the last news ...) ... to the "great pleasure" of our dear tankers ...

I feel that we will soon witness the same debate as between oils and diester ... :|
0 x
User avatar
bob_isat
Pantone engine Researcher
Pantone engine Researcher
posts: 290
Registration: 26/08/05, 18:07




by bob_isat » 27/09/06, 19:12

yep ...

the pb of the ethanol + petrol mixture is that they decant easily, especially if there is humidity.

2 solution: conversion of ethanol into etbe or additives.

comm. of the government does not speak of any chemical modification of the ethanol contained in e85:

http://www.industrie.gouv.fr/energie/re ... se/e85.htm


that's it i found better, an excellent file which goes around the e85, experiments in france and fuel flex:

Link

we learn there that the oil tankers are not at all interested in the distribution of e85 and that consequently it will be necessary that the state is based on the large distribution.

we deduce ... no ETBE in E85!

and even better, bioethanol is in the process of being approved for esterating vegetable oils and allowing the marketing of a real biofuel for diesels without petroleum methanol!
0 x
User avatar
gegyx
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6769
Registration: 21/01/05, 11:59
x 2758




by gegyx » 27/09/06, 21:51

On FR2, 20 p.m., we talked about it.
It's 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline.
Ethanol can come from beets, corn, wheat.
A beet producer said that it was entirely doable, and that it was good for the agricultural sector.
The beets, chopped are put in fermentation, a sweet juice is drawn from it, we make wine, which we distill ...
Just that! I also find that the transformations must indeed be energy-consuming.
+ So for me, if you need 1,5 liters of ethanol for a liter of petrol, at € 0,86 per liter, you have to pay € 1,29 to equal a liter of petrol at € 1,24 .
If it is necessary to make in addition modifications, not subsidized, on the old vehicles…
It is an eyesore for the average French, because "the case is well framed", by the strategists.
We will sigh that it is good for the planet! But let's observe the sequence of events….

-----
You see that these forums are useful !
Spies of the ministries make interesting readings there, see the mentality of the young and not so young, the opinion of people who have already thought a little, and who have reasonable remarks, and also the underground actions and movements of "marginalized" uncontrollable.
And we decide to hit a blow, just before the elections ...
(I think that the current recognition, very late, of the African combatants enlisted from the colonies, to defend the Motherland, is part of the same process.
Maybe they are not so sure of their advantage at the next presidential elections…
I prefer these late reforms, rather than "the supposed aggression coming from city thugs", staged in Orleans, on the eve of the last presidential elections, which made it possible to put two right-wing candidates in the lead. : Evil: )
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 78783
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10838




by Christophe » 27/09/06, 22:18

bob_isat wrote:we deduce ... no ETBE in E85!


Uh I would not be as categorical ... according to the very good doc that you found, page 14 and 15 it is well evoked the transformation into ETBE and it is well said that the EU regulations only allow pure ethanol up to 5% (E5) and Total is present in the supply chain ...

However on the diagram page 13 ETBE is not mentioned ...

.... in short it is not clear this case! : Cheesy:
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 78783
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10838




by Christophe » 27/09/06, 22:34

After some more detailed research, it seems to me that we should conclude with ETBE ...

1st argument "in favor" of ETBE

In this video conference of the CNAM it is well said that ethanol prohibited in France because of the regulations and that conversion into ETBE compulsory:
https://www.econologie.com/video-confere ... -2991.html
The corresponding document is this: https://www.econologie.com/valorisation- ... -2985.html

2nd argument

a) Page 26 of the Marne document (appendix), the vapor pressure (volatility) standard for E85 is given: 35 min and 90 kpa max.

b) But I quote the .pdf of the CNAM: "The incorporation of 5% EtOH (ethanol) leads to an increase of 50 to 80 mb of the vapor pressure: increase of the emissions by evaporation of 30 to 50%"

However, according to the same doc, the vapor pressure of ethanol is 140, that of the super from 45 to 90.

c) It is therefore difficult to obtain an E85 at 15% petrol and 85% ethanol below 90 kpa max ... since the calculation of the average volatility is a simple barycenter according to b)

So in the "best" case with 85% ethanol at 140 kpa and 15% gasoline at 45 kpa we get an E85 at 125,75 kpa ... well far from the 90 kpa max ...
Last edited by Christophe the 21 / 06 / 07, 16: 28, 1 edited once.
0 x
User avatar
gegyx
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6769
Registration: 21/01/05, 11:59
x 2758




by gegyx » 27/09/06, 23:31

These sentences seem to go in the direction developed on FR 2, even if it does not seem to be the best solution:

The use of mixtures rich (for example 85% or E85) in ethanol is done in Brazil where there are more than 4,5 million light vehicles running on ethanol. However, the vehicle requires specific adaptation.
http://www.industrie.gouv.fr/energie/re ... urants.htm
-------
What is E85?
It is a fuel containing 85% ethanol by volume and 15% gasoline by volume. A minimum petrol content is necessary to guarantee the cold running of the vehicle. The ethanol which enters the composition of E85 is an alcohol, mainly produced by the fermentation of grains rich in sugar or starch, ie from sugar beets, or from cereals.
Where can we find E85?
E85 is not currently a fuel generally authorized in France and there is no consumer pump distributing it. However, it has just been authorized for experiments carried out in 2006 on captive fleets using private pumps.
In order to generalize its use, the Government's objective is to completely authorize this fuel from January 1, 2007 and to encourage the development of a network of green pumps to distribute it throughout French territory.

http://www.industrie.gouv.fr/energie/re ... se/e85.htm
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "biofuels, biofuels, biofuels, BtL, non-fossil alternative fuels ..."

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : Google [Bot] and 50 guests