Bioethanol - what it costs and what it gives

crude vegetable oil, diester, bio-ethanol or other biofuels, or fuel of vegetable origin ...
Christophe
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Bioethanol - what it costs and what it gives




by Christophe » 28/07/08, 19:29

It takes a little more than a liter of petroleum equivalent to produce a liter of bioethanol.

These figures are from plowing until the last distillation.

It takes 1,600 liters of ethanol to provide the same amount of energy as a liter of petroleum equivalent.

Where's the good deal?

It is not because the whole world is unreasonable that one should refuse any effort of reflection, whatever the social or political position.


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More: eco balance of bio ethanol
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by the middle » 28/07/08, 19:52

The good business ? for Brazilians maybe (financially, but not ecologically :D)
Dominique Bussereau announces that biofuels "contribute to the strengthening of our energy autonomy". However, the energy balance of ethanol in France is not satisfactory since it requires almost as much energy to produce it as it restores: It takes the equivalent of 0,8 to 1,2 liters of petrol to produce 1 liter of ethanol based on beet or cereals then that it takes less than 0,25 liters in the case of ethanol from sugar cane in Brazil

But why, it only takes 0.25 liters in Brazil?
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by Christophe » 28/07/08, 19:59

Good question :)

a) the plant is not the same and yields vary widely from plant to plant.

b) it can grow (probably) faster / easier in Brazil: therefore need less fertilizer ... petroleum.

c) Finally: production is surely less mechanized than here ... the study does not say if "human" energy and CO2 are taken into account :D Yes, the workers must feed them and move them ... it also consumes.

Here is a doc with the comparison of all bio fuels from the moment.
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by the middle » 28/07/08, 20:23

"human" is taken into account Hey yes the workers have to feed them and move them ... it also consumes.

Maybe also in Brazil they drink less alcohol : Cheesy:
The part of the angels : Cheesy:
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by Hasardine » 28/07/08, 21:02

Just over 2 years ago, we thought we were doing well by investing in a bioethanol fireplace!

the seller offered us 2 cans of "bio-ethanol"
I thought it had a funny smell, in fact it was not!
we then discovered the real ecological and human impact of this "miracle product"

we were disgusted with it.

It seems that 2nd generation bio-ethanol, from crop waste is more ethical than the previous one, does anyone have any information?
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by Chatham » 29/07/08, 06:29

Hasardine wrote:
It seems that 2nd generation bio-ethanol, from crop waste is more ethical than the previous one, does anyone have any information?


In fact the figures announced are pretty much anything: bioethanol is certainly not a panacea but the energy balance is still clearly positive (German source), about the level of Canadian oil from oil sands...
The new method is starting to be used in Germany: until now we only used plant fruits, now it's the whole plant, for example straw, elephant grass, etc.
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by Hasardine » 29/07/08, 08:29

once again the germans have an ecological train ahead of the french!
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by jonule » 29/07/08, 11:42

bioethanol is certainly not a panacea but the energy balance is still clearly positive (German source), about the level of Canadian oil from tar sands ...


you could display your german source i'm curious to read that?
because defending the balance sheet of ethanol and of tar sands I don't really understand.

In Brazil they make ethanol (necessarily organic from biomass otherwise it is petroleum mineral methanol) with the remains of sugar cane distillation!
basically what is left is fermentable to make alcohol.
so they recycle waste fuel, a bit like used oil and fries!
knowing that cane sugar is super good. but brief ...

In France there is no sugar cane that can grow: so to say "respect" the European directives which require member states (including France) to respect the% of biofuels in fuels, they want at all costs to choose l 'ethanol, while they could accept the oil on the list of biofuels, which France has not chosen to do, so amemde to pay for the state i.e. us ... so they use lots of water and pesticides fertilizers insecticides etc to grow wheat and corn.

why this "pitiful" scenario when everyone was already saying that ethanol was not viable and profitable, and a flashback (the gasoline engine was invented to run on alcohol like the diesel engine in gasoline? 'vegetable oil) ?
One may ask :
- to raise the price of wheat and corn, use an agro-food weapon in the weakest countries?
- to increase the price of rapeseed and make it unattractive for farmers who would like to make oil (which gives, as everyone knows, oil meal, +)?
- with all the transformation of wheat corn into alcohol they manage to calculate a value added tax?

...
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by Christophe » 29/07/08, 11:49

The source also interests me because the Germans may have made the same (gross) error as the Bureau Waterhouse, to read here:

https://www.econologie.com/ecobilan-de-l ... -3593.html

A new study on the energy balance of the bioethanol sectors of beet, corn and wheat will be carried out, because a certain number of experts have questioned the calculation methods of the Price Waterhouse Coopers Ademe-Direm 2002 study which nevertheless served as the basis for setting up bioethanol supply chains.

The energy balances of bioethanols, beet, maize and wheat biofuels are challenged by a number of experts. They criticized the Price Waterhouse Coopers Ademe-Direm 2002 study, which served as the basis for setting up the bioethanol sector, for not having taken into account all of the energy costs attributable to the production of these biofuels.. A new, more contradictory analysis is planned. The points of contention also address taxation and thus the cost for public finances and on the future of co-products primarily for animal feed protein.
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by the middle » 29/07/08, 12:29

Brazil...
I crossed Brazil by bus... 48h00; my legs were like watermelons
What I saw, there is ... let's say 8 years ago, it's like Thailand (which I also visited + -25 years ago !!!) DEFORESTATION; land as far as the eye can see which is laminated, these lands are not made for being cultivated, they need trees ... pcq, either the layer of soil is thin, or the land is sloping.
I saw at that time, (in Brazil) hectares of burning sugar cane ...
In Thailand ? dead land (as far as the eye can see) and tons of tree trunks with numbers ... :?
For the brulis in Brazil?
It was intended; this facilitates the harvesting of sugar cane (facilitated)
Now managers or large owners have understood that "burning" is an unnecessary waste of energy (they have replaced men by machines, and waste is used as fuel ...)
The Brazilians have now understood that everything is good in cane, like the pig.
Compared to oil, economically, cane in Brazil has been very profitable for decades ...
But ... they have not yet understood that in the long term this economy is destructive (death of the substrate)
You have to see to understand ...When I visited these two countries, there was no question of "end of the world", and yet every time I saw these tracts of RASEES land, I was terrorized ...
And I did nothing, except notice ...
Not good.... :?
Fault confessed is half redressed... :?
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