Nanotechnology and pollution

Discussion of methods of remediation and control air quality.
Ahmed
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by Ahmed » 07/09/14, 20:49

What poses a problem of understanding is that this evolution towards dehumanization is a continuous process which unfolds inside the value system, a system which is at the end of its course because of its contradictions and which, logically must sink into a "phase of collapse", to use the words of Roddier; how to reconcile this continuity with this rupture?

If the system collapses, it will not be half but truly apocalyptic: our societies are now far too complex to operate in "sleep" mode.

On the other hand, if we disregard this difficulty (difficult to overcome!), It is easy to imagine various variations on a humanity in which a minority "benefits" from transhumanism and the majority is kept apart, although there again, because of the unprecedented aspect of this society, it is difficult to see clearly how the relations of domination could function.
Indeed, if the minority maintains close and therefore exclusive links with robots or other similar devices, this calls into question its relationship with the rest of humanity in a radically new way and would imply a total devaluation of this "remainder". , with all that that can suppose ...
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by sen-no-sen » 07/09/14, 21:53

Ahmed wrote:What poses a problem of understanding is that this evolution towards dehumanization is a continuous process which unfolds inside the value system, a system which is at the end of its course because of its contradictions and which, logically must sink into a "phase of collapse", to use the words of Roddier; how to reconcile this continuity with this rupture?


Indeed this may appear paradoxical, if not contradictory, however certain historical example demonstrates that a process present as opposite little very well reinforced what he was supposed to fight ...

Let us take the example of fascism, the latter is characterized by a romantic anticapitalism, it would therefore be easy to believe, a fortiori in the current context, that the fascist forces or at least the proto-fascist would dissident from the "system" based on the free trade and on a weakening of nations ....

Yet it appears throughout history that the phases of economic downturn - often characterized by fascist or pro-fascist ideologies - in reality make it possible to restructure the economy through a new ideology by relegating the origin of social problems. not on the economy itself, but on scapegoats ... in fact sparing the initial problem ... this one can then "cut" some time later on other ground in order to redeploy itself through a new cycle.

It may be the same with hyper-technological development: the chaos engendered by economic collapse, and the conflicts arising from it may lead to significant destruction of the biotopes, effectively forcing humanity to move towards method relating solely to technology.
The geo-climatic engineering projects start from this observation: the nations being manifestly unable to fundamentally remedy global warming, only a technical process that fits into the economic interests at stake will limit the impact caused by it ...
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by achernar » 07/09/14, 23:18

Ahmed wrote:I think it makes sense to unearth this thread, given the increasing investment, research and use of these new materials.
Naturally, the title of the subject is far too restrictive compared to all the possible forms in which these nanomaterials appear.

It appears today that the only sector likely to absorb a substantial part of the huge financial mass seeking profitable areas where to invest is that of nanotechnologies.

Indeed, the perspectives of matter in this particular form completely changes the behavior and properties of the materials we know.

On the other hand, the fields of application are very numerous and include the military field (which is the engine of any industry, and it is not fortuitous) which makes that the appetites are as great as the dangers which ensue from it. : if it is profitable, we will not be choosy and risk spoiling everything by finicky controls.


Small technical question. For you, when you speak of "field of nanotechnology", what does that include for you? Is it in the broadest sense? From chewing gum to medicine to pottery?
Or then in a slightly more limited sense (which should be defined)?
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by Ahmed » 08/09/14, 13:00

Achernar, I place myself here more on a socio-economic plan and I therefore consider all nanotechnologies, as indicated by this part of my message: "... the fields of application are very numerous ...".

Sen-no-sen, I do not believe that the example of fascism is relevant: romantic anticapitalism is a constant of the extreme right, but what is a "romantic anticapitalism", if not a rhetorical fiction? Fascisms have relied on funding from industrialists and bankers to conquer power, so nothing that opposes the system ...

The redeployment towards hypertechnology after a phase of collapse which would directly impact the most technical aspects of our current operations, leaves the question unanswered: how can a historically unprecedented technical regression lead to an exacerbation of a omnipotent technology (even if we understand that it would be for a very different purpose and arrangement than what we know)?

One could, with good reason, maintain that the destruction of biotopes and of the general organization of "economized" societies would very quickly destroy the possibility of any somewhat complex form of technique making an exit "from above" unthinkable and that the fact the pressing need for an increased use of restorative or substitute techniques does not in any way affect the capacity to implement them.
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by sen-no-sen » 08/09/14, 13:49

Ahmed wrote:Sen-no-sen, I do not believe that the example of fascism is relevant: romantic anticapitalism is a constant of the extreme right, but what is a "romantic anticapitalism", if not a rhetorical fiction? Fascisms have relied on funding from industrialists and bankers to conquer power, so nothing that opposes the system ...


This is what I noted: fascism presenting itself as an alternative to systems is, in reality, only a local process of reconfiguration to perpetuate the whole.
So I agree, as you mentioned, that fascism is indeed a "facade anti-capitalism" ...
(We should spread the idea because I believe that many French people will make this mistake in 2017!)



how can a historically unprecedented technical regression lead to an exacerbation of omnipotent technology


And how can a world war - despite the gigantic destruction it causes - lead to an explosion of the economy in the post-war phase ???
How can a phase of massive extinction like that of the Permian (80% of species disappeared) lead to an explosion of life leading to the reign of the dinosaurians ???
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by achernar » 08/09/14, 14:13

Ahmed wrote:Achernar, I place myself here more on a socio-economic plan and I therefore consider all nanotechnologies, as indicated by this part of my message: "... the fields of application are very numerous ...".


And that's what bothers me, to make an analysis in this genre it is imperative for me to really define the field.
In itself I understand where you are coming from but to nitpick to make pottery or a toilet it is nanotechnology and it is neither exactly highly technological nor a destroyer of jobs.
What area has been affected by nanotech and caused jobs to be lost dramatically?
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by Ahmed » 08/09/14, 17:28

Achernar, it is not nitpicking to seek accuracy.
Making pottery or WC requires the use of natural nanoparticles: I would therefore not speak of nanotechnology in these cases.
Similarly, the nanoparticles contained in the exhaust gases of diesel engines do not fall within this field, since they are involuntary.
Naturally, one can contest this definition, but I would restrict their domain to that of deliberate use and production.

My purpose is not to denounce the destruction of jobs, it would even be an excellent thing if work were not one of the irrational bases of our societies!
It is to highlight the contradictions.

The current development of these techniques remains modest, but it is normal to wonder about a future announced as "revolutionary" and, in this hypothesis, it appears that these techniques would be able to obtain a leverage effect comparable to that induced by computing.
The automation of its production, as well as the volumes implemented, clearly indicate that these sectors will not create much employment, while they are potentially destructive of those for which it will replace.
Admittedly, for the moment it is more an addition to conventional products, but there is little doubt that nanotechnologies will gradually get rid of them and lead to entirely new products; it is in any case the wish of their promoters.
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by Ahmed » 08/09/14, 17:59

Sen-no-sen :
Regarding fascism, I do not dispute your point, as you understood, I specify ...

You write :
And how can a world war - despite the gigantic destruction it causes - lead to an explosion of the economy in the post-war phase ???

War is not at all opposed to technology or the economy, on the contrary!
Using as many staff as possible, using high-performance techniques because with abundant capital, the production of goods with ideal characteristics: easy sale, good margin, very rapid wear and tear, ultra-short financial cycles ... all of this constitutes supreme optimization. of capitalism!

It is therefore not surprising that this operation is easy to reorient after the conflict, because everything is in place: equipment, personnel, needs and even funding. via inflation ...

The phases of extinctions of species then of the reappearance of others are done on considerable time scales, if we count on this kind of evolution in the case which concerns us here, that would suppose to make a clean sweep of the most of our skills, then a very slow reappropriation of techno-science, when, by hypothesis, we assumed that these new techniques would be justified in response to the degradation of the environment, because of the conflict (or in a contemporary way to that -this).
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by achernar » 08/09/14, 18:21

Ahmed wrote:Achernar, it is not nitpicking to seek accuracy.
Making pottery or WC requires the use of natural nanoparticles: I would therefore not speak of nanotechnology in these cases.
Similarly, the nanoparticles contained in the exhaust gases of diesel engines do not fall within this field, since they are involuntary.
Naturally, one can contest this definition, but I would restrict their domain to that of deliberate use and production.

My purpose is not to denounce the destruction of jobs, it would even be an excellent thing if work were not one of the irrational bases of our societies!
It is to highlight the contradictions.

The current development of these techniques remains modest, but it is normal to wonder about a future announced as "revolutionary" and, in this hypothesis, it appears that these techniques would be able to obtain a leverage effect comparable to that induced by computing.
The automation of its production, as well as the volumes implemented, clearly indicate that these sectors will not create much employment, while they are potentially destructive of those for which it will replace.
Admittedly, for the moment it is more an addition to conventional products, but there is little doubt that nanotechnologies will gradually get rid of them and lead to entirely new products; it is in any case the wish of their promoters.


Okay, thank you very much for that clarification : Cheesy:
It is true that in my eyes nanotechnology is more a tool, a support for other things and not an end in itself. But with what awaits us (lab on ship, intelligent medicine, implant and other joyfulness) the nano is on the rise and risks changing the face of society.
I tend to want to be an irreparable optimist and to hope more for a "mind games" society. 8)
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by sen-no-sen » 08/09/14, 19:34

Ahmed wrote:War is not at all opposed to technology or the economy, on the contrary!


We agree on the above.
It is for this reason that it is conceivable that, through a large-scale conflict, consequence of a generalized collapse, hyper-technology will find its place as a palliative to a bruised world, all the more that its sectors are mainly carried by military agencies! (DARPA, NSA, Lokheed-Martin) etc ...

The phases of extinctions of species then of the reappearance of others are done on considerable time scales, if we count on this kind of evolution in the case which concerns us here, that would suppose to make a clean sweep of the most of our skills, then a very slow reappropriation of techno-science, when, by hypothesis, we assumed that these new techniques would be justified in response to the degradation of the environment, because of the conflict (or in a contemporary way to that -this).


Our universe is a gigantic fractal, if we reduce the extinction / appearance of species in time to cycles of boom and economic crashes, we arrive at roughly the same orders of magnitude, all proportion kept of course.
If we take the example of "the Cambrian explosion" which took place over millions of years, we will notice that this one (brought back to contemporary times) is quite similar to the explosion technology of the industrial revolution.
In reality, all it takes is a technological "hotbed" to enable global redeployment in a short time.
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