Agriculture: problems and pollution, new technologies and solutionsA vegetable meadow?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 13599
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 4624

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Did67 » 30/10/18, 10:16

I will do a little summary on the "manure" (I say them, because it varies a lot between fresh manure and manure very decomposed, with all possible intermediaries)! I finally finish, a video filmed August 29.

And good news, it's raining. Finally 7,5 mm so far. It's not the flood!
0 x

Moindreffor
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1465
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 285

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Moindreffor » 30/10/18, 11:20

to be chafoin wrote:I have plenty of it right next door. Studs, stables ... all the time. Manure at will because indeed they are overflowed (I have already seen a special truck with crane that comes to remove it). I took 2 or 3 years ago to fertilize a few boards in the garden, when I had the opportunity to borrow a trailer for example. I stopped mainly because I find the manipulation tedious for the means that I have. But now I think that manure poses several problems:

1) : Arrow: it's heavy, it stinks a little and it's not always good quality (it depends on the dry matter that is mixed with the dung and their proportion: if there are a lot of wood chips there may be to be chances that this is a zero sum job)
2) : Arrow: mushrooms: the excess of phosphorus is harmful to them and the manure contains a lot of this element
3) : Arrow: there is the problem of antibiotic treatment of horses (perhaps negligible, no or little effects on the soil, plants? to see according to the types of stables: race horses, leisure ...?)
4) : Arrow: the horses are fed with fodder which itself is certainly fattened in conventional. This is ultimately to fertilize your garden from mineral fertilizers!
5) : Arrow: if it is ripe manure, we find the same remarks as for the use of compost: pollution (especially CO2, which would prefer to leave the manure for the methanizers?) and substance not nutritious for the organizations laborers of the ground.

It is therefore necessary here, in my opinion, to inquire with the stables to know what is their mode of operation to know in particular how they feed their horses and manage their breeding. I have decided to practice plant fertilization whose benefits well explained by Didier arrange me well. Nevertheless, I do not really have a definite opinion. For Laurent Welsh, animal fertilization is the second pillar for the creation and maintenance of humus. For him, as for the compost, he associates this with the essential role of the ferment, to distil so with art in order to invigorate the processes of the soil and the organic life.

1) yes it's heavy and it could, ok for the composition Didier will enlighten us
2) excess, excess is still not a mine of phosphorus and the kitchen gardens are not siped either
3) litter mostly horses is changed often, and a horse is not normally continuously under treatment so the doses should be minimal
4) you especially fertile your garden with a waste that if you do not use it will end up in a pile and rot on the spot and all the energy that is inside will go in CO2 and everything that will mineralize will be leached by the soil, so here I will say that you "save" some
5) methanizers as if there were any street corners, individuals who own 1 or 2 horses will not wear it in a methanizer they will just find an agreement with a farmer to have a corner where let it rot

I think you are on this one a bit pessimistic and extremist, get some of this manure is just out a part that will become useful at home, instead of being lost in a corner where it will pollute more than something else
0 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear best"
(of me)
User avatar
to be chafoin
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 558
Registration: 20/05/18, 23:11
Location: Gironde
x 28

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 30/10/18, 14:23

I found the discussion on the subject (1088 page). This is Didier's observation on P and myc:
91 page of their book [Fortin, ...] (that suddenly I recommend, without ads!) There is a table that gives for 9 vegetable or agricultural species, the "mycorrhizal dependence of plants" = the part of P that their is provided by mycorrhizae for a content of 100 ppm P in the soil. We see that in wheat, at this level, it is "independent". But at 50 ppm, it receives 30% of its P of mycorrhizae. The leek, at 100 ppm of P, receives 95,7% of the mycorrhizae. At 50 ppm, it is 97%. But at 150 ppm, it fell to 50. Several vegetables are in similar orders of magnitude: carrots, peas, beans, beans, sweet meats. Tomato and potato are less dependent [40 to 60% to 100 ppm; slightly more at 50 ppm - 60 / 65%] and become "independent" at 150 ppm [0% of P of mycorrhizal origin] .The comment says that this was obtained "from a field experiment".
[...] There is clearly a threshold for vegetables between 100 and 150 ppm P in soil, from which the benefit of mycorrhizae decreases or collapses. On this basis, I recommend not to fertilize, at the risk of making the plant "independent" - since it easily finds what it needs - mycorrhizal fungi.
See also fragments in the following 1089,1090 pages, where I bounced with Lowenfels' warning about P and manure. I reported for example that the latter evoked that some research mentioned rather rates of 30ppm instead of 100ppm Didier. I always quote Didier:
(a) the fresh manure is not rich in P; it is even, for an "organic amendment", rather poor ... (the straw being poor); say "very average" [3,5 units of P / ton with enormous variability according to the nature of the diet, depending on the animal species, etc ...]
b) it is true that once the manure decomposed, the C having gone away, the minerals are concentrated; the P is not leached (or little) in the heap, so the content, relative to the gross tonne of manure, increases, where some of the nitrogen escapes as a gas and a part of the K is leached if the pile is not under a roof (which is rarely the case) ... [But there is not more than before; he's just more focused in less material!]
[...]
A contribution of 40 gross tons / ha every 3 years [an average dose, today very little practiced! This is the equivalent of 4 kg / m² in the kitchen garden, ie 400 kg on 100 m²] brings about 350 units of P. It is indeed, quite significant and corresponds to the needs of 3 cultures that will succeed each other ..
It follows a calculation to appreciate what gives these 4kg / m2 "mixed" 30 cm of soil that already contain phosphorus and draw a threshold even vague (p1091-1092). I have only kept the passages relating to the subject. End of calculation:
So 15 000 mg of P / 400 kg of soil = 35 mg of P / kg of soil.
The "limits" in biology are never square. These are curves "bell" ... It is not 79 mg no effect, 80 mg maximum effect. I think that at 35, we start to have an effect ...
Especially if we now consider 15 cm of land only (what we dig), if we consider that the mycorhization is established initially; if you consider that a market easily brings 2 or 3 or 4 times the doses of a farmer (look at a field after passing a manure spreader, there are some "pieces" of manure here and there; to see with the "continuous layers of manure" that uses a market, one sees that one can reach very quickly the limit ...
So with a lot of reserves (the calculations are to be verified) 4kg fresh manure m2 could mark a beginning of negative effect on some mycorhizations.
0 x
Moindreffor
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1465
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 285

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Moindreffor » 30/10/18, 19:40

to be chafoin wrote:I found the discussion on the subject (1088 page). This is Didier's observation on P and myc:
91 page of their book [Fortin, ...] (that suddenly I recommend, without ads!) There is a table that gives for 9 vegetable or agricultural species, the "mycorrhizal dependence of plants" = the part of P that their is provided by mycorrhizae for a content of 100 ppm P in the soil. We see that in wheat, at this level, it is "independent". But at 50 ppm, it receives 30% of its P of mycorrhizae. The leek, at 100 ppm of P, receives 95,7% of the mycorrhizae. At 50 ppm, it is 97%. But at 150 ppm, it fell to 50. Several vegetables are in similar orders of magnitude: carrots, peas, beans, beans, sweet meats. Tomato and potato are less dependent [40 to 60% to 100 ppm; slightly more at 50 ppm - 60 / 65%] and become "independent" at 150 ppm [0% of P of mycorrhizal origin] .The comment says that this was obtained "from a field experiment".
[...] There is clearly a threshold for vegetables between 100 and 150 ppm P in soil, from which the benefit of mycorrhizae decreases or collapses. On this basis, I recommend not to fertilize, at the risk of making the plant "independent" - since it easily finds what it needs - mycorrhizal fungi.
See also fragments in the following 1089,1090 pages, where I bounced with Lowenfels' warning about P and manure. I reported for example that the latter evoked that some research mentioned rather rates of 30ppm instead of 100ppm Didier. I always quote Didier:
(a) the fresh manure is not rich in P; it is even, for an "organic amendment", rather poor ... (the straw being poor); say "very average" [3,5 units of P / ton with enormous variability according to the nature of the diet, depending on the animal species, etc ...]
b) it is true that once the manure decomposed, the C having gone away, the minerals are concentrated; the P is not leached (or little) in the heap, so the content, relative to the gross tonne of manure, increases, where some of the nitrogen escapes as a gas and a part of the K is leached if the pile is not under a roof (which is rarely the case) ... [But there is not more than before; he's just more focused in less material!]
[...]
A contribution of 40 gross tons / ha every 3 years [an average dose, today very little practiced! This is the equivalent of 4 kg / m² in the kitchen garden, ie 400 kg on 100 m²] brings about 350 units of P. It is indeed, quite significant and corresponds to the needs of 3 cultures that will succeed each other ..
It follows a calculation to appreciate what gives these 4kg / m2 "mixed" 30 cm of soil that already contain phosphorus and draw a threshold even vague (p1091-1092). I have only kept the passages relating to the subject. End of calculation:
So 15 000 mg of P / 400 kg of soil = 35 mg of P / kg of soil.
The "limits" in biology are never square. These are curves "bell" ... It is not 79 mg no effect, 80 mg maximum effect. I think that at 35, we start to have an effect ...
Especially if we now consider 15 cm of land only (what we dig), if we consider that the mycorhization is established initially; if you consider that a market easily brings 2 or 3 or 4 times the doses of a farmer (look at a field after passing a manure spreader, there are some "pieces" of manure here and there; to see with the "continuous layers of manure" that uses a market, one sees that one can reach very quickly the limit ...
So with a lot of reserves (the calculations are to be verified) 4kg fresh manure m2 could mark a beginning of negative effect on some mycorhizations.

I think Didier must talk about dry mass, because talk of fresh manure and wet, it does not make much sense because 4 kg of manure it must be more than 3 kg of fleet more if it is very strawy what is often the case for horse manure because they need very clean boxes, so I have no fears
0 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear best"
(of me)
User avatar
to be chafoin
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 558
Registration: 20/05/18, 23:11
Location: Gironde
x 28

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 30/10/18, 21:32

Yes, I do not know maybe he was talking about ripe manure instead ... In any case it was a rather strong dose of manure spread "normally" by farmers.
0 x

Moindreffor
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1465
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 285

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Moindreffor » 31/10/18, 08:10

to be chafoin wrote:Yes, I do not know maybe he was talking about ripe manure instead ... In any case it was a rather strong dose of manure spread "normally" by farmers.

4kg at the m2 per hectare it's kind of 40t it must make cows : Mrgreen:
0 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear best"
(of me)
User avatar
to be chafoin
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 558
Registration: 20/05/18, 23:11
Location: Gironde
x 28

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 19/12/18, 21:59

Most of my autumn seedlings have been unsuccessful but recently a few lines of peas are trying to break through 3 weeks at least after sowing. Suddenly question on the duration of germination displayed (which was here from 10 to 15 days): what is it? How long does it take for the seed to develop its first photosynthetic equipment under ideal conditions, for example in the home sprouter? After this time, we must add the time to get out of the earth?
0 x
Moindreffor
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1465
Registration: 27/05/17, 22:20
Location: boundary between North and Aisne
x 285

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Moindreffor » 20/12/18, 08:40

to be chafoin wrote:Most of my autumn seedlings have been unsuccessful but recently a few lines of peas are trying to break through 3 weeks at least after sowing. Suddenly question on the duration of germination displayed (which was here from 10 to 15 days): what is it? How long does it take for the seed to develop its first photosynthetic equipment under ideal conditions, for example in the home sprouter? After this time, we must add the time to get out of the earth?

it corresponds to a duration of emergence, in good conditions, warm soil, good humidity, it is an indication, my bulbs of onions planted in the spring without too much to push them in the ground, or even surely not enough raised only after the summer, I picked up a game and I was disappointed because I missed a lot of it and then I have almost everything missing that points to the call like what, all summer in the earth dry in the hay, and with the return of the rains, the hay which degrades the onions found the good conditions and it raises and it grows, so nothing astonishing for your peas

what is to be feared for this kind of seed is that they rot in the ground or be eaten by this or that pest, but apparently not, so always keep hope

it is the non-work of my soil that has allowed my last bulbs of onions to come out, so one more positive point, the whole thing is that we will have to harvest them green because I think they will all very quickly climb to seeds unfortunately
0 x
"Those with the biggest ears are not the ones who hear best"
(of me)
User avatar
to be chafoin
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 558
Registration: 20/05/18, 23:11
Location: Gironde
x 28

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 27/12/18, 00:34

I am the evolution of the seedling of small peas ... which continue to point everywhere ... before being planed, probably by slugs!

I still install stakes (nets and branches) hoping that a good amount comes out. But it seems that the slobber adore the peas (and with the humidity that drags!) So that it is easy enough to find my seedlings, even sometimes lost in the middle of various greenery that repel here and there: these are the only small seedlings that are nibbled!

Remember the pea for spring "marting seed" to protect other crops?
0 x
User avatar
nico239
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 2433
Registration: 31/05/17, 15:43
Location: 04
x 263

Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby nico239 » 27/12/18, 01:46

Since all that was not protected in the greenhouse was eaten with 0 salads this winter against a perfect regularity last year we tested (except the bottles that are good but not super practical, I speak well of practical and not effective) green cups ...

At this moment 100% of success, all shoots are in place.

While slugs even go to eat seedlings in pots on crates or even in kitchen gardens.

To follow but suddenly I will order again.
0 x




  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Agriculture: problems and pollution, new techniques and solutions"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : Stef72 and invited 1