Agriculture: problems and pollution, new technologies and solutionsA vegetable meadow?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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to be chafoin
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 27/10/18, 11:15

Did67 wrote: idea of ​​"nitrogen pumps":

- there, on a part you will not grow vegetables next season, put a big layer of pure straw: you generate a "mega-hunger of nitrogen"
- in spring, in coarse furrows (open just with a hook, for example), install legumes forage (clovers); these are the legumes the most effective in terms of symbiotic nitrogen fixation
Would it work with non-forage legumes like beans? Do the latter have the same functioning of which you speak: the more the soil is hungry for nitrogen, the more and better the beans will grow? I ask myself the question because, by dint of doing, I find that the beans walk surprisingly well in my garden. It is such an easy crop, perhaps because it is not a variety that has been adapted to the soil / climate for a very long time. Apparently the Gauls were already cultivating it, I do not know about the "Gironde" but ...
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Did67 » 27/10/18, 11:46

to be chafoin wrote:If nutrients are leached, is it really a godsend? Of course we do not talk about the same animals, but it is good to feed micro-organisms and animals (soil) all the same.


Yes.

The loss of leachable elements is low. The essential is "trapped" in the biomass.

Ruminants eat hay that has taken rain, unless it is moldy (often this is what makes this hay is no longer used as fodder). They prefer the one who did not take the rain!

Many garden with "miserable" materials (cardboard, straws, faux-BRF ...) and "it works"! What no ruminant eat!

For me, it's still a bargain!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Did67 » 27/10/18, 11:53

to be chafoin wrote:About the problem of mycorrhizas at this border point: Laurent Welsh also says in his conf. that those of the forest compete with those of the meadow and advises to install or maintain rosacea (brambles, small fruit, strawberry, raspberry ...) which would be a good hinge of these spaces since they would have the capacity to come into symbiosis with both types of mycorrhizae.


It defends itself. It is the natural habitat of these shrubs or strawberries. That in the absence of "forest", I feed in BRF ...

Indeed, while my vegetables "open environments" seem a little suffer from the proximity of my hedge north, "cassettes" (cassis-currant hybrids) are resplendent.

Another point: in "agroforestry", it would be necessary to install the trees after the planks of vegetables. Because otherwise, all the space is occupied by the mycorrhizae of the trees, which will not be dislodged like that! Whereas if the soil is occupied by vegetable mycorrhizae, it will not be as easy for the mycorrhizae of the trees to occupy everything. That said, the outcome of the match is known: the trees, with their mycorrhizae, take over. A meadow, naturally, evolves towards a wasteland (with brambles) that evolves towards a forest ... So the forces at stake seem unequal!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Did67 » 27/10/18, 12:03

to be chafoin wrote:[
Would it work with non-forage legumes like beans? Do the latter have the same functioning of which you speak: the more the soil is hungry for nitrogen, the more and better the beans will grow? I ask myself the question because, by dint of doing, I find that the beans walk surprisingly well in my garden. It is such an easy crop, perhaps because it is not a variety that has been adapted to the soil / climate for a very long time. Apparently the Gauls were already cultivating it, I do not know about the "Gironde" but ...


They make symbiotic fixation, like forage legumes, but are much less efficient.

I suppose they are also regulated by a negative "feedback": the more nitrogen in the soil, the less they fix the atmospheric nitrogen. On beans, I clearly observed the absence of nodosity.

So there is another "system", intermediate:

a) create a hunger for nitrogen
b) grow legumes: beans, beans ... which we can think that they will be less efficient than the same cultivated WITHOUT hunger for nitrogen. But they will still produce something!
c) maybe - probably - the rise of the N rate of the soil, and its ability to produce many other non-nitrogen fixing vegetables will be slower ... But as we harvest already, it will not be so serious ...

Note in passing that we are re-inventing the "agricultural revolution of 18ème", more precisely its first step: the introduction of legumes instead of bi- or triennial fallows. [This will then allow the heavier mechanization, because one can better feed the animals of strokes, more numerous. This will lead to an evolution "capitalistic" because everyone will have access to this technology, but those who have access take over ... The others are impoverished and become servants in the first.]
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby nico239 » 27/10/18, 12:17

Would we be wicked capitalists without our knowledge? Image
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Did67 » 27/10/18, 13:22

If we assume that our way of doing things is great, that it has a very high labor productivity, we just have to invest in land, fine-tune the marketing, and potentially, with an insatiable desire to become rich, we should do it! Soon those who have failed by digging mounds will be our minions!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 27/10/18, 17:40

Did67 wrote:Note in passing that we are re-inventing the "agricultural revolution of 18ème", more precisely its first step: the introduction of legumes instead of bi- or triennial fallows.
Has the nitrogen supply of legumes been verified by agronomic experiments (field measurement with control plot ...)?
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby nico239 » 29/10/18, 23:24

I did not look at it at all but

https://www.leboncoin.fr/jardinage/1506038044.htm/

For your vegetable garden, your trees, your garden ..... GIVES horse dung all the year !!

Just call us, come with bins, buckets, or a trailer, a shovel is at your disposal.

No limit on the desired quantity! So do not hesitate and it's free!

The dung is mixed with untreated wood chips.



And I did not do a search everywhere in France, I came across it by chance.
In this case it remains to define what is a "SHOVEL" and whether it is mechanical or muscular Image

But I'm sure that ads like this one are everywhere in France
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby Moindreffor » 30/10/18, 08:48

nico239 wrote:I did not look at it at all but

https://www.leboncoin.fr/jardinage/1506038044.htm/

For your vegetable garden, your trees, your garden ..... GIVES horse dung all the year !!

Just call us, come with bins, buckets, or a trailer, a shovel is at your disposal.

No limit on the desired quantity! So do not hesitate and it's free!

The dung is mixed with untreated wood chips.



And I did not do a search everywhere in France, I came across it by chance.
In this case it remains to define what is a "SHOVEL" and whether it is mechanical or muscular Image

But I'm sure that ads like this one are everywhere in France

I have already said elsewhere, many people have horses, but not the outlet to part with the dung so it must be everywhere that kind of mine to MO, me the difficulty is transport, put it in my SUV inside leather that's not going to do it : Mrgreen:
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Re: A vegetable meadow?

Unread Messageby to be chafoin » 30/10/18, 10:00

I have plenty of it right next door. Studs, stables ... all the time. Manure at will because indeed they are overflowed (I have already seen a special truck with crane that comes to remove it). I took 2 or 3 years ago to fertilize a few boards in the garden, when I had the opportunity to borrow a trailer for example. I stopped mainly because I find the manipulation tedious for the means that I have. But now I think that manure poses several problems:

: Arrow: it's heavy, it stinks a little and it's not always good quality (it depends on the dry matter that is mixed with the dung and their proportion: if there are a lot of wood chips there may be to be chances that this is a zero sum job)
: Arrow: mushrooms: the excess of phosphorus is harmful to them and the manure contains a lot of this element
: Arrow: there is the problem of antibiotic treatment of horses (perhaps negligible, no or little effects on the soil, plants? to see according to the types of stables: race horses, leisure ...?)
: Arrow: the horses are fed with fodder which itself is certainly fattened in conventional. This is ultimately to fertilize your garden from mineral fertilizers!
: Arrow: if it is ripe manure, we find the same remarks as for the use of compost: pollution (especially CO2, which would prefer to leave the manure for the methanizers?) and substance not nutritious for the organizations laborers of the ground.

It is therefore necessary here, in my opinion, to inquire with the stables to know what is their mode of operation to know in particular how they feed their horses and manage their breeding. I have decided to practice plant fertilization whose benefits well explained by Didier arrange me well. Nevertheless, I do not really have a definite opinion. For Laurent Welsh, animal fertilization is the second pillar for the creation and maintenance of humus. For him, as for the compost, he associates this with the essential role of the ferment, to distil so with art in order to invigorate the processes of the soil and the organic life.
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