The vegetable garden without getting tired

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Obamot
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Obamot » 12/12/20, 15:57

Did67 wrote:b) "dressed" and "covering" vegetables (cabbage, beets, Swiss chard, artichokes, tomatoes, etc.):

c) vegetables "not covering enough" (onions, garlic, leeks, etc.)

Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:
I had also had shoots on boots but it was not folichon in terms of vigor.


I have a few questions that have bothered me for years ... (I don't often intervene here, I mostly read and I learn)
These are serious questions, but which are intangible elements that will perhaps appeal to the depths of your knowledge and experience? Unless you already have an answer to that?

I read somewhere that “hardy” fruits and vegetables (by that mean those from the days before WWII) had more than ten times the nutrients than those from intensive agriculture today ( the one “pampered with glyphosate”, if we dare say that!)

We all already know that any cultivation experience done using “sloth's vegetable garden” techniques is already extraordinary in terms of flavor. And necessarily point of view nutritional value itou, since growing under ideal conditions which prevail after letting the soil do its job without disturbing it (mycelium, nature of the soil depending on the crop, any natural inputs required, etc.)

This is where my dilemma begins.

Coming exclusively from this type of “ideal” permaculture, let's take: a new carrot, VS an average, VS one at full maturity and VS one that has passed full maturity, but which is left in the soil which then serves as “ guard mamger ”.

Let's also take: two fully ripe apples, a very small one that grew a little in the shade (but ripe), and a large, the largest possible, from the same tree and compare them!

Assuming that any apple or vegetable (small or large), of the same species and from the same direct genetic group) is potentially capable of all giving birth to other healthy congeners, and whatever their starting volume, this therefore seems to indicate that the “energy and nutrients” they contain - even if they seem less numerous in parts per 100 grams in a smaller subject - provide all the energy required sufficient to perpetuate the species and would produce the same result.

So, for us, is it the same if we eat a small carrot or a big one (same for apples, etc ...)?
Is there a concentration of nutrients in small subjects, or will a larger subject rather have more?

For example, how much vitamin C per 100gr from small apples VS the quantity of vitamin C per 100gr from larger fruits of the same tree?

If the reasoning is correct and a small subject has all the elements (equal maturity), then the amount of vitamin C per 100g from large apples, should be less than that from small apples (relatively the same weight).

And not exclusively in terms of nutrients, but in terms of “vitality”? (Which is a subjective notion that is difficult to describe, in the sense that if a small subject manages to perpetuate the species like a large one, it is because there must be a concentration of “something” which allows it) Here what do we inherit: small subjects vs big ones? It is undoubtedly something observable in mountain where the conditions are less favorable? Plants have to struggle more and use their energy to get stronger, which in the end also has to strengthen us even more when we eat them, right?

What do you think?
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Biobomb
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 12/12/20, 22:03

Obamot wrote:
I read somewhere that “hardy” fruits and vegetables (by that mean those from the days before WWII) had more than ten times the nutrients than those from intensive agriculture today ( the one “pampered with glyphosate”, if we dare say that!)


It was written by well-known and world-renowned specialists, but without the end of your sentence, especially the part in parentheses.
They weren't talking about just rustic vegetables either, but vegetables in general.
I will try to find the detail.
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 12/12/20, 22:34

Obamot wrote:We all already know that any cultivation experience done using “sloth's vegetable garden” techniques is already extraordinary in terms of flavor. And necessarily point of view nutritional value itou, since growing under ideal conditions which prevail after letting the soil do its job without disturbing it (mycelium, nature of the soil depending on the crop, any natural inputs required, etc.)


it is not only the PP techniques that allow this. My experience shows me that alternative methods combining several
ways of doing things give better results than those expected by the only implementation of a vegetable garden of the lazy type.
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 12/12/20, 22:52

Obamot wrote:
Assuming that any apple or vegetable (small or large), of the same species and from the same direct genetic group) is potentially capable of all giving birth to other healthy congeners, and whatever their starting volume, this therefore seems to indicate that the “energy and nutrients” they contain - even if they seem less numerous in parts per 100 grams in a smaller subject - provide all the energy required sufficient to perpetuate the species and would produce the same result.
its apples, should be smaller than that of small apples (relatively the same weight).


IMHO this principle can be debated.
example: professional nurserymen and market gardeners always choose among the most beautiful and often among the most important of their subjects those which will be useful for their selection for the sake of sustainability.
Personally, when I choose from among my vegetable plants those I want to transplant, I primarily take the most beautiful and the strongest.
for seeds ditto: I discard the smallest seeds.
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 12/12/20, 22:57

Obamot wrote:So, for us, is it the same if we eat a small carrot or a big one (same for apples, etc ...)?

What do you think?


I do not hesitate to say, and my long experience confirms it to me, that a large apple from the same tree is better than a small one, proportionately. Ditto for my vegetables.
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Obamot » 12/12/20, 23:08

Thank you for these responses...

Biobombe wrote:
Obamot wrote:[...] even if they appear less in parts per 100 grams in a smaller subject

IMHO this principle can be debated.

... Completely debatable indeed, since this passage is in contradiction (or balances) with the rest of my questioning ...

Let us get on well, there is no objective with a future productivist aim in my questioning, but exclusively qualitative.

If I do an endurance race during the day and I have the choice between 2,5Kg of small apples VS large apples, I take what, and of course the sweeter ones!

If my goal is not, neither productivity nor competition but MY HEALTH ABOVE ALL, is it better:
- small fruits and vegetables when ripe?
VS
- the largest fruits and vegetables when ripe?

And why ?

PS: be careful with the fact that referring to taste is certainly indicated, but that should not be the only criterion. When we improve the quality of the food we eat (variety of choice, variety of origins, and other criteria of variety, seasonality and quality) the taste ends up changing enormously. And so what we considered “good” at one time will not be so at all later ... Taste can also tell us “that we want to eat this rather than that ”, but simply because “our body would need it”And sends us a signal of pleasure so that we eat more ... (and not necessarily a wealth of nutrients and others for equal body weight by comparing 2 varieties to test)
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 12/12/20, 23:27

Obamot wrote:Thank you for these responses...

even if they appear less in parts per 100 grams in a smaller subject

... Completely debatable indeed, since this passage is in contradiction with the rest of my questioning ...

Let us get on well, there is no objective with a future productivist aim in my questioning, but exclusively qualitative.

If I do an endurance race during the day and I have the choice between 2,5Kg of small apples VS large apples, I take what, and of course the sweeter ones!

If my goal is not, neither productivity nor competition but MY HEALTH ABOVE ALL, is it better:
- small fruits and vegetables when ripe?
VS
- the largest fruits and vegetables when ripe?

And why ?

PS: beware of the fact that referring to taste is certainly indicated, but that should not be the only criterion. When we improve the quality of the food we eat (variety of choice, variety of origins, and other criteria of variety and quality) the taste changes enormously. And so what we considered “good” at one time, will not be so at all later ...


I understand, but what health? if you are in physical health, you take the bigger ones and you give to other people who appreciate your smaller vegetables / fruits. you have less work to prepare the adults.
if moral health you have to be masochistic to eat the little ones first!
in short, you eat a mixture of small and large, which I do, or I eat large first and then small.
if you conserve your production by storing it, you will see that the big ones take less wrinkles than the small ones.
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Obamot » 12/12/20, 23:42

If I had to answer you according to what you list - it is conceivable very well - but then I would not keep the larger ones for myself ... but I would make a selection of the basket representative of what grew at home for exchange it with another for a basket of the same type but coming from another origin, from another “field”.

So I would benefit from inputs that my land does not provide but which is available elsewhere (such as what would come from a land particularly rich in sulfur, input which would then be found in the plants that grew there, etc.) and vice versa if my field is richer in other elements less available at the kind 'barter', it would be very beneficial for both participants.

So much for the “health benefit” ...

(although this does not answer the initial question, it's interesting to take it into account, I keep the idea that arose from it!)
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 13/12/20, 21:54

: Arrowu: 0
Obamot wrote:
(although this does not answer the initial question, it's interesting to take it into account, I keep the idea that arose from it!)


It's a little more complicated than thinking only of small vs large, because there are the means, the mid-range. The latter represent the bulk of the harvests. We can imagine it a bit like a statistical law of normal distribution.
But the little ones retain their importance: the potatoes will serve as replants, the apples will be pressed into juice.
There are also families or plant varieties which provide more than 95% of the means. Ex: peas, beans, all cabbage, tomatoes, cucumbers, etc ...
Among the fruits here: currants, blackcurrants, raspberries, blackberries, mirabelles, etc., and among the heavyweights, quince.
Some hybrids allow very regular calibers, so no need to strain your brain.

For the initial question, we would have to see labs or nutrition specialists because we need measuring devices.
But the terroir, a relative concept among all, must in any case be taken into consideration.
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Re: The vegetable garden without getting tired




by Biobomb » 13/12/20, 22:36

Obamot wrote: the sweetest of course!

If my goal is not, neither productivity nor competition but MY HEALTH ABOVE ALL, is it better:
- small fruits and vegetables when ripe?
VS
- the largest fruits and vegetables when ripe?

And why ?


If fruit:
For diabetics, it should be consumed in moderation.
For overweight people you have to be careful.
For others, you shouldn't pull the devil by the tail, but beware of the fructose overdose.

If vegetables, it depends on the type. Personally I find a large turnip less tasty than a small-medium one.
Conclusion:
in case of doubt, which is not my case, opt for the intermediate size by suitable cultures.
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