Le Potager du Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Doris » 07/03/21, 07:43

Julienmos wrote:I wonder if it's not because I had sown my mixture relatively early (at the end of August) and therefore had time to grow well already during the fall ...

That's certainly it: at home, part of the seeds wasted by chickens and ducks every year become green manure by themselves, everything that grew like this at the end of summer is shot, which was riquiqui before the frosts, is doing well.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by pi-r » 07/03/21, 15:28

Did67 wrote:The option to use poor materials and correct their main flaw is explicitly in my second book ...

it was his reading that encouraged me to go in the direction ... where I already wanted to go!
Did67 wrote:It's nice to find someone who speaks PDIN / PDIE and UF ... When I wrote my first book, it was a puzzle to make the link between levels as fodder (therefore PDIN / PDIE and UF), easily found for hay, and N - P - K contents (almost impossible to find!) ... Well, I found (but very little data; I like having samples). But I had to convert units, gross masses, dry masses, content of the raw product, etc ...

thanks to you !
Did67 wrote:I'm a bit concerned with other "obligations" ... Not to mention other "sites" related to PP! Get me back. I will look and give you an opinion ... But the way is good!

worry my goal was to confirm that I am not getting lost in an abusive interpretation of my intuition ... moreover I know from experience that in terms of feeding ruminants we must also put things into perspective. tables, analyzes, etc ... are there to inform practice and understand failures / successes; give limits beyond which it is useless, dangerous or "economically" harmful to go.
in my opinion we must remain humble and not focus too much on the numbers "after the comma" in the feeding of ruminants as long as they are on consistent breeding practices. for me the soil is a "super powerful and complex ruminant"

well that's not all but .. I have a video of 2H 21 "on the lights" !!!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 07/03/21, 17:30

Julienmos wrote:Hello
little question about my green manures from last winter:

I had two plots with a rye and vetch mixture.

I had understood that rye resisted the cold well and really began to grow in late winter and spring.

But at home, surprise, the winter frosts have destroyed everything! no more trace of vetch or rye alive.

I wonder if it's not because I had sown my mixture relatively early (at the end of August) and therefore had time to grow well already during the fall ...


It resists very well, at the RIGHT STADIUM!

It's counterintuitive, but a small seedling is much more resistant than a grown plant. Farmers sow winter cereals at the end of October / early November just so that they are at the right stage.

View: https://lozere.chambre-agriculture.fr/f ... _froid.pdf
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Julienmos » 07/03/21, 19:54

Did67 wrote:
Julienmos wrote:

It resists very well, at the RIGHT STADIUM!

It's counterintuitive, but a small seedling is much more resistant than a grown plant. Farmers sow winter cereals at the end of October / early November just so that they are at the right stage.

View: https://lozere.chambre-agriculture.fr/f ... _froid.pdf


yes, I thought that was surely the cause, because you often explained that to us.
I had for a moment thought that it could be a question of variety (of rye), I don't know if there are more or less resistant to cold ...
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by VetusLignum » 07/03/21, 21:14

VetusLignum wrote:
Did67 wrote:The probability of winning the jackpot at Euromillion is low ... That doesn't mean it never happens.

If you want to win for sure, you'll have to play billions and billions of times.

Or by chance, playing the maid ...

So if you want to create a strain by mutation, you can spend your life and the lives of your children there. Or you can have the chance to stumble upon it, like winning a jackpot.

Not to mention the fact that a mutation is far from always positive - it is usually "rubbish". Many rare diseases (or not for that matter), are the consequences of a mutation - the gene of I do not know which enzyme is damaged and you have celiac disease (true gluten intolerance) ...

Among these "anything", very rarely, is found something great or interesting ... Very rarely does not mean never.

And an interesting case on which an attentive gardener (among the millions of gardeners, breeders, etc.) comes across does not prove that this is not something very rare. There are cases of people who have only played the lotto once in their life - or been offered a ticket - and won the jackpot! They do not prove anything that you win every time - or even that you win easily!

Not all gardeners, among the millions, have had the chance to "come across" a new variety ...


Yet all the studies looking at the genetic diversity of garlic say the same thing: they say there is a great deal of genetic variability, and a great adaptability, hence a very large number of varieties.
Example:

Garlic has a large diploid genome (2n = 2x = 16), of an estimated haploid (1C) size of 15.9 gigabase pairs (Gbp); that is, 32 times larger than rice (Oryza sativa). Garlic is sterile (does not produce fertile botanical seeds by sexual reproduction), asexually propagating by its cloves, despite some progress in recent years to restore garlic fertility (Shemesh-Mayer et al., 2015). Besides, cloves must be reproduced every year, since they cannot be stored for longer periods and then germinated, as happens with standard botanical seeds. Such peculiarity adds extra cost and inconvenience to its maintenance, mainly for large germplasm collections. The peculiar garlic reproduction could lead to low genome diversity, since meiosis is not involved in its clonal reproduction by vegetative propagation (Kamenetsky et al., 2015). Yet, garlic shows a surprisingly high biodiversity, as well as environmental-adaptation capacity and phenotypic plasticity (Volk et al., 2004). All that leads to the large number of garlic varieties or cultivars available (traditionally classified by agromorphological characteristics). The reason for that is not fully understood, suggesting a complex genome (Green, 2001), due to its extremely large size containing many multicopy genes and other duplications, including non-coding sequences and tandem repeats (Arumuganathan and Earle, 1991; Jones et al., 2004; Ovesna et al., 2015), which should be better understood once sequenced.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00098/full




In the article below, they explain how they create a new variety of garlic in 7 years. Some extracts:

Some ecotypes of garlic (Allium sativum L.) are capable of blooming and producing botanical seeds, nevertheless the clonal selection remains to be the most valuable tol to make use of the abundant genetic diversity that have this species and its botanical varieties (var. Sativum , var. ophioscorodon, var. pekinense). These changes and the strong interaction that this crop presents with the environment, such as the one related to thermo and photoperiod, makes that the ecotypes, biotypes, varieties and cultivars are worldwide mistaken. The clonal selection can be mass or individual. The mass selection is more effective from the point of view of the quantity of acquired “seed”, but more delayed in terms of the best responses. The individual selection reaches more rapidly the proposed goals, but it is slower to reach large volumes of “seeds”. In the course of six or seven years, it can be achieved a new variety of garlic, capable of overcoming in comparative essays the local control plants. After formal registration in a record, this new material enters the stage of “seed” production.

Understood that plantas de ajo regeneradas from the in vitro cultivo of tejidos (callos) mostraron marcada variabilidad para características fenotípicas como altura de planta, número de hojas, peso y forma de los “dientes” (bulbillos), características de las “bulbillos” cabezas ”(bulbos), coloración de hojas envolventes y presencia de bulbillos aéreos, from las cuales fue posible the selection of somaclones sobresalientes that posibilitaron the creation of nuevos cultivares.

The existence of genetic variación para número de bulbillos was confirmed by the respuesta a la selection, that the permitió to obtain clones con distribuciones muy diferentes. In tests between experimental clones of ajo “colorado” verificó una mayor variación en peso y una alta, positiva y significativa (P ≤ 0,01) fenotípica correlation between diámetro y peso, that osciló between 0,939 and 0,715 (López Frasca et al. , 1997)

Luego de la cosecha se analiza para cada familia el rendimiento (diameter, peso y PER: peso específico relativo), y con una presión de selección aproximada al 50% se eliminan todas aquellas familias con malo regular behavior (Burba, JL, 1997b).
Repitiendo este proceso, en el transcurso de 6 ó 7 años puede lograrse una nueva variedad de ajo, capaz de superar en ensayos comparativos a los testigos locales.

Se entiende por adaptación la capacidad que tienen los organismos para modificar su behavior ante una nueva situación y se acceptaque ellos tienen mecanismos capaces de lograrlo (Burba, 1997a).
El ajo, originario de zonas con inviernos rigurosos y fotoperiodo primaveral largo (alrededor of 40 ° N), se ha dispersado adaptándose hasta in tropical regions, sin embargo el “precio” de esta adaptación se evidencia por la modificación de la pungencia, conservation poscosecha y calidad estética (gran número de dientes asociado a deformaciones o escaso número de dientes asociado a bajos rendimientos).
http://docplayer.es/12508892-Plantulas- ... a-gov.html
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Moindreffor » 07/03/21, 21:31

VetusLignum wrote:In the article below, they explain how they create a new variety of garlic in 7 years.

between creating and recovering a new variety from a "natural" mutation there is a world : Mrgreen: , we can use inducers of mutations so there we provoke, we observe and we sort, there is more chance in there, it would be like stopping the balls of the euro-million : Mrgreen:
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Moindreffor » 07/03/21, 21:38

little question
Didier told us about dormancy for garlic, Ok
So we know how to fight against the lifting of dormancy, but precisely this should not be used to program this lifting of dormancy
Let me explain, when we put winter garlic in the ground at the end of October, if we kept it warm, the dormancy will only be lifted after planting, and therefore we will have to wait 3 -4 or even 5 weeks for it to rise and that's when we hear about the risk of rot because at this time it rains

So shouldn't we prepare for this lifting of dormancy upstream, so even if at the end of September early October we can still have beautiful days, put our garlic a little in the fridge, from the end of September, discontinuously, to trigger the lifting of dormancy? and therefore plant garlic at the end of October which only asks to rise, and therefore very quickly have roots and leaves which would cancel the rotting of the pod since at that time we have a plant and no longer a pod

another remark my yellow onions from last year's seedlings have their dormancy which begins to rise the sprouts start to come out, on the other hand for the red onions, which they should be put even later they already have sprouts of 3 or 4cm, I will put them in a cup and keep them sheltered from frost, still -4 ° C last night, otherwise they will be sure they will vernalize

another question where to find the length of dormancy?
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by sicetaitsimple » 07/03/21, 21:59

Moindreffor wrote:
another remark my yellow onions from last year's seedlings have their dormancy which begins to rise the sprouts start to come out, on the other hand for the red onions, which they should be put even later they already have sprouts of 3 or 4cm, I will put them in a cup and keep them sheltered from frost, still -4 ° C last night, otherwise they will be sure they will vernalize


P..ain, how complicated you are!
You plant in the ground and you will see what happens, and the following year you will do the same or differently depending on the results.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Moindreffor » 07/03/21, 22:12

sicetaitsimple wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:
another remark my yellow onions from last year's seedlings have their dormancy which begins to rise the sprouts start to come out, on the other hand for the red onions, which they should be put even later they already have sprouts of 3 or 4cm, I will put them in a cup and keep them sheltered from frost, still -4 ° C last night, otherwise they will be sure they will vernalize


P..ain, how complicated you are!
You plant in the ground and you will see what happens, and the following year you will do the same or differently depending on the results.

I know very well that the reds will go to seed it's been 2 years that I experiment the trick, not complicated just realistic
I planted the yellows and the reds at the same time 2 years ago, very early a little seed growth for the yellows, a lot or even all for the reds, the following year planting at the same time for both but later no seed increase for the yellows, less for the reds, so this year it will be the yellows first and the reds later

if I plant the red ones now it is certain they will go to seed, for the yellows, I will do it in 2 times, one soon and another a little later and in addition I will sow some to harvest this year and later for plant if this year's one works
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by sicetaitsimple » 07/03/21, 22:22

You do of course as you see fit ... But hey, it's a bit like potatoes or garlic, when you use your own seeds, you have to plant when it starts to germinate (or before) and then happens that may ....
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