Le Potager du Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by thursday » 26/11/20, 23:27

Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:This for a yield per m² of vegetable garden of the same order as the cutlure, good. -
What do you mean?

I hope at least that our Alsatian gardener understands me.
I mean here that his garden produces the same same order of magnitude of vegetables as other cultivation method. for example 1kg of potato per m² and per year.
if it were 3 or 10 times less, it would be uninteresting: not to tire yourself out to have nothing, blah.
If it is, 3 times more, ah that would be nice. Nothing improbable or magical, photosynthesis converts less than 1% of light energy into biomass energy, there is room for improvement.

Is hay in great thickness every necessary necessary over time?

äie, I wrote incorrectly.
the question was: should we put back so much hay each year? A very thick layer?
Or a long-term improvement makes it possible to consider lowering the doses. For any poorly mastered process, we put too much at the beginning (such as treatment by amateur gardeners), and then we learn to do better.

Isn't the interest of hay that it is balanced in C / N?
To increase the carbon rate it would rather be boyat, no? And be patient ...

In the book "the vegetable garden of the sloth", the author if I remember correctly said measuring an increase in organic matter in the soil.
Other more carbonaceous materials also have this effect, perhaps faster, but with less nitrogen vegetables grow less well.

What would be the problem with this exploitation?

If we are wondering how to feed a population more widely with practices that improve the soil, the problem is to need a lot of surface. but this area of ​​meadow does not appear to visitors or to anyone who wants to get started. So we can give the illusion of having found an abundant non-polluting and fatigue-free cultivation method, but by masking the fact that this requires a lot of surface area.
We often have this problem in terms of ecology, false solutions, such as agrofuels, well this has been known for a long time for this particular subject.
be careful, I am not saying that a vegetable patch with lots of hay is harmful like agrofuels.

You also speak of spontaneous grass which brings their energy - What do you mean?

to ask our author, he indicates that plants capture energy from the sun and give it back to the soil by decomposing, after which I do not want to modify his thinking.

Is it always related to the supply of hay or do you want to talk about something else?

Hay, or any plant that decomposes quickly so not too woody I can

In what way are the vegetable gardens not nourishing?

they are on a small scale. A good 500m² vegetable garden can feed one person with vegetables, maybe two, people who practice autarky might tell us, but this is rare. That is to say that they have no external contributions (purchase in the trade of cereals, bread, legumes from field crops and not from the garden) or negligible contributions
In short. A good small soup of 500m², ok but you need 1500 to 2500m² of meadow nearby to cover.
In France, there is 5000 m² cultivable per inhabitant, it is still happening.

The durability of what?

From an artificial food production system: garden, cultivated field.
And in the case shared by the book, that would be "organic", productive and not exhausting.
It being understood that a forest for hunting is obviously sustainable, but it feeds 10 to 100 times less people per km², anthropogenic food production systems exist for us to be so numerous on earth, in directing plant production as best we can towards what interests us, us humans who think and discuss, but who do not eat wood (everything would have been easier in this case).

I noticed from your book that what comes out of mines alter in the long run - What do you mean?

damn, I wrote wrong.
what comes out of the mines are metals, which are dispersed on the surface of the earth, either for agriculture voluntarily: copper as phytosanitary, involuntarily: cadmium bound to fertilizers, or by other processes such as lead which existed for gasoline, which is found in the air and then in the ground. it does not disappear, it does not fit all in the ocean, it accumulates in part in the earth, without much means of diminishing in the short term. And some metals can reach concentrations that inhibit biological processes.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 27/11/20, 01:26

jeuf wrote:I mean here that his garden produces the same same order of magnitude of vegetables as other cultivation method. for example 1kg of potato per m² and per year.


Ah ok that's why I didn't understand your question because, if you read it well, the answer was already in his post
Did67 wrote:I obtain, per unit area of ​​the vegetable garden, yields "easily" equivalent to those of "classic organic".




Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:Is hay in great thickness every necessary necessary over time?

äie, I wrote incorrectly.
the question was: should we put back so much hay each year? A very thick layer?
Or a long-term improvement makes it possible to consider lowering the doses. For any poorly mastered process, we put too much at the beginning (such as treatment by amateur gardeners), and then we learn to do better.


Ok this point is cleared up


Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:Isn't the interest of hay that it is balanced in C / N?
To increase the carbon rate it would rather be boyat, no? And be patient ...

In the book "the vegetable garden of the sloth", the author if I remember correctly said measuring an increase in organic matter in the soil.
Other more carbonaceous materials also have this effect, perhaps faster, but with less nitrogen vegetables grow less well.


More carbonaceous materials have this effect but faster there I doubt it
What is your source for saying this?
On the contrary, it seems to me that the more carbon we balance, the more we have to wait for the return on investment.
And for a private vegetable garden which must be productive, if possible 12 months out of 12 this is not the best contribution
Rather, it would be for pros who have rotational skills.
Whoever chooses a balanced cover whatever it is, spares this kind of apothecary calculation
Hay is unique in that it avoids building this kind of gas plant: mowing + straw or brf + compost or other ... with the hay we are sure of its balance and for the common gardeners it is a good compromise easy to implement for a minimum of effort
So ultimately good productivity



Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:What would be the problem with this exploitation?

If we are wondering how to feed a population more widely with practices that improve the soil, the problem is to need a lot of surface. but this area of ​​meadow does not appear to visitors or to anyone who wants to get started. So we can give the illusion of having found an abundant non-polluting and fatigue-free cultivation method, but by masking the fact that this requires a lot of surface area.
We often have this problem in terms of ecology, false solutions, such as agrofuels, well this has been known for a long time for this particular subject.
be careful, I am not saying that a vegetable patch with lots of hay is harmful like agrofuels.

Previously you yourself stated the perimeter: "the hay would be limited to vegetable gardens"
It's the case
So therefore useless to extrapolate it to a broader notion such as: "feed a population more widely"
The use of hay is limited to private vegetable gardens and again I perhaps sense in Didier a possible evolution towards a sort of hay / natural grass mix (which I wouldn't mind Image)
But without going that far, I do not have the impression that, for private gardens in concrete reality, the use of hay is on the verge of exhausting the stock of the meadows.
You just have to bend down on the BC to pick up (or buy) plenty of boots.
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Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote: You also speak of spontaneous grass which brings their energy - What do you mean?

to ask our author, he indicates that plants capture energy from the sun and give it back to the soil by decomposing, after which I do not want to modify his thinking.

Ok I am very fond of natural grassing which indeed has the immense advantage of producing free energy and which produces the most lively soil therefore the best possible for crops so I can only share


Adrien (ex-nico239) wrote:In what way are the vegetable gardens not nourishing?

they are on a small scale. A good 500m² vegetable garden can feed one person with vegetables, maybe two, people who practice autarky might tell us, but this is rare. That is to say that they have no external contributions (purchase in the trade of cereals, bread, legumes from field crops and not from the garden) or negligible contributions
In short. A good small soup of 500m², ok but you need 1500 to 2500m² of meadow nearby to cover.
In France, there is 5000 m² cultivable per inhabitant, it is still happening.


Ok a vegetable garden is therefore very nourishing
Extrapolating on the idea of ​​autonomy introduces a notion that does not exist at the start and has never been part of the PP project

"People who practice autarky could tell us and but it is rare": incomprehensible
"That is to say that they do not have external contributions (purchase in the trade of cereals, bread, legumes from field crops and not from the garden) or negligible contributions
In short. A good small soup of 500m², ok but you need 1500 to 2500m² of meadow nearby to cover.
In France, there is 5000 m² of cultivable space per inhabitant, which is still happening. ” and the rest not better

The durability of what?

From an artificial food production system: garden, cultivated field.
And in the case shared by the book, that would be "organic", productive and not exhausting.
It being understood that a forest for hunting is obviously sustainable, but it feeds 10 to 100 times less people per km², anthropogenic food production systems exist for us to be so numerous on earth, in directing plant production as best we can towards what interests us, us humans who think and discuss, but who do not eat wood (everything would have been easier in this case).
Ok so no interference with the PP's vegetable garden everyone has their own requirements

I noticed from your book that what comes out of mines alter in the long run - What do you mean?

damn, I wrote wrong.
what comes out of the mines are metals, which are dispersed on the surface of the earth, either for agriculture voluntarily: copper as phytosanitary, involuntarily: cadmium bound to fertilizers, or by other processes such as lead which existed for gasoline, which is found in the air and then in the ground. it does not disappear, it does not go all in the ocean, it accumulates in part in the earth, without much means of diminishing in the short term. And some metals can reach concentrations that inhibit biological processes. [/ Quote]
Ah ok
You might as well be aware of it and remove it if it turns out to be harmful
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 27/11/20, 08:54

1) "Detailed" answers, or supported, it's ... a little book to write ...

2) For "answers" (sometimes it's easier!), Can someone remind me how to make multiple quotes ???
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Yool » 27/11/20, 09:27

If we limit ourselves to vegetable gardens, an interesting question of "jeuf". IF all the vegetable gardens in France start to adopt the lazy vegetable garden (we can always dream of it), would there be enough hay growing area for the vegetable gardens + to feed the animals (breeding and leisure)? Indeed, the production of hay on site requires space to the detriment of growing vegetables.

Working with the right weeds after a few years of adding hay already makes it possible to reduce the amount of hay.

In addition, if extrapolating would we not risk an increase in the price of hay by the interplay of supply and demand?
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by phil53 » 27/11/20, 10:42

yool wrote:If we limit ourselves to vegetable gardens, an interesting question of "jeuf". IF all the vegetable gardens in France start to adopt the lazy vegetable garden (we can always dream of it), would there be enough hay growing area for the vegetable gardens + to feed the animals (breeding and leisure)? Indeed, the production of hay on site requires space to the detriment of growing vegetables.

Working with the right weeds after a few years of adding hay already makes it possible to reduce the amount of hay.

In addition, if extrapolating would we not risk an increase in the price of hay by the interplay of supply and demand?

Lawn surfaces are not shocking yet this grass can be recycled to PP.
Tarred concrete surfaces do not shock either, or almost. For home gardens, there is a margin before disrupting the hay market.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 27/11/20, 11:25

I suggest that we deal with different points, one after the other. It's not about dodging. If we don't have good arguments, it's because it's not clear. That's all.

For "family gardens", the surface is statistically poorly known! I had done some research. I don't remember any more.

If everyone does it, it will consume a lot of hay! At the same time, it is quite utopian. There may be one in 1 vegetable gardens. In my lifetime, would I see one in 000 vegetable gardens? [it will depend on how long I still live, you will tell me]

100%, this can only be envisaged within the framework of a broader reflection and certain arbitrations (choice to be made)

a) 700 leisure horses in France, which consume, in hay or grass (which therefore does not become hay), with a ladle, about twenty rolls each ... Is it more reasonable to ride on horseback , organize shopping or produce vegetables?

b) Is it reasonable to consume so much meat and milk ???

The resource is there. You have to make choices.

Of course, it's a profound change, breeders to reclassify, stop betting at PMU or whatever ... Find another "gift" for the girl that only the horses understand her !

c) There is currently "abandonment" in mountain areas. The wastelands are winning. We no longer mow because it is not profitable, not easy enough to mechanize, etc ... If we want to preserve our landscapes (but it's a choice! The beautiful mountains of Switzerland or Austria are not natural! !!), we should enhance and continue to mow these areas, which are becoming wasteland. And later, forests. The Swiss have machines that make it possible to mow / swath / collect hay on very steep slopes ...

Again, a matter of choice.

Note: it's worse for "organic"! If everyone goes organic, where will we find all the dried up blood, all the crushed horns, all the guano used as "organic fertilizer", or the slurry in "organic" granules; all the compost (of which of course, it would be necessary to use the fresh biomass on the surface - so we increase the overall "productivity"!) currently used. Because all "sustainably organic" solutions (which is not an input) can be integrated into the PP! In "organic", where will all the natural phosphates come from? All natural potash (Patentkali) ??? All the fuel to work the soil (roughly 10 times more fuel-consuming than mowing / harvesting hay).

The problem of others does not solve his own, of course. But we must also ask them when it comes to opting for a particular way of doing things.

d) Note also that if I put the "dose" of hay at the start, just to "boost" my system, I am now wondering about the possible excesses - richness of the soil, leaching, ...

And that my tests and reflections go in the direction of a more cyclical gardening, with less hay in "input": crops under cover, CIPAN in the broad sense (including unharvested vegetable remains, spontaneous regrowths, whether they are nice weeds, leftover vegetables or sown "green manures" - all of that is the same thing, with just "gradients of work intensity" - and costs).

I grope. And I invite everyone to do it.

It does not seem unrealistic to me to reduce my hay consumption by half (I would still use some, to "restore order" before planting or sowing, in order to give my greedy vegetables a sufficient advance (so that they are above the living canopy).

Finally, last but not least, as the mineral richness of my soil increases, as the stock of stable OM swells, the time will come when the hay will be too rich! And you MUST at least mitigate, or even switch to poorer materials (straw, dead leaves) ...

This year, my piece of garlic is ... under pure dead leaves. Alliates do not need fertile soil. I think I have accumulated enough. So, at this place, I take a "break"! I have to make a video elsewhere ...

Hay, I wrote, is not dogma. The dogma is "to feed the living soil system well". In energy first (stop sending it in the air in a compost, see burning to "clean" - branches, pruning). Then in nitrogen ... Hay is only the laziest way, when you find it, to get there.

PS: Yes, suddenly, all this is complicated. I would like to be a research institute to do as many soil analyzes as possible, measure, count, weigh, evaluate, statistically treat, repeat, etc ...

What we see best is the results that evolve. It is apparent. The spontaneous flora also (some weeds "disappear"). The entomofauna ... We see much less what is happening in the ground. If not, through the 3 analyzes made a year ago, that my P exploded, beyond the contributions (hypothesis: by mobilization via mycorrhizae). I thought I was hallucinating. The OM rate has gained 1% in 6 or 7 years - yes, PP is a "carbon sink". But suddenly the contributions of elements by secondary mineralization (that of stable OM which are mineralized) have already increased by 25%). And it continues. In about fifteen years, I could reduce the contributions and "stabilize" the curve !!!

We must not reason in static !!!
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 27/11/20, 11:39

yool wrote:
Working with the right weeds after a few years of adding hay already makes it possible to reduce the amount of hay.



Yes, significantly.

But we have to deal with it culture by culture. Some boards did not receive "new hay" in 2019. There was a little left, enough to install my tomatoes, in the middle of an unnamed mess ...

Others have settled spontaneously in bare soil: my cheeks. So my soil is so damaged that I afford the luxury of doing nothing, bringing nothing after the potato harvest, for example. Or soon, the harvest of celeriacs. The hay set aside during the pot harvest is swathed, to resume this in the spring, restore order ... The one that remains under the celery, will stay.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by alkaline » 27/11/20, 17:46

Did67 wrote:A new video, on the state of the vegetables cultivated in "shifted", after a frost at - 4,5 ° C at home on the night of November 20 to 21 (idem the next day; this night, we just came close to the + 0,5 ° C at ground level). And a few thoughts on it!

Hello :) I really liked this video. Instructive on the cold. I had -4 ° in the vegetable garden and saw that the peppers and peppers had passed the weapon on the left (as said) all the same.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Yool » 27/11/20, 17:53

Thank you Didier for all these details.
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Re: The Kitchen Garden Sloth: Gardening without fatigue more than Bio




by Did67 » 27/11/20, 18:18

Did67 wrote:
a) 700 leisure horses in France, which consume, in hay or grass (which therefore does not become hay), with a ladle, about twenty rolls each ... Is it more reasonable to ride on horseback , organize shopping or produce vegetables?



I quote myself, not being able to edit any more.

I would like to clarify this point: within the framework of the reflections of the level "our grandparents were formidable", there is a whole movement in the direction of the rehabilitation of harnessed traction - assine or equine.

It must be understood that "making earthworms, bacteria and fungi work" by feeding them well is a bit like "invisible harnessed traction"! Except that there are many other benefits to this active life in the soil, including the balance of microorganisms, which contribute to healthier, better nourished plants, the mobilization of insolubilized P via mycorrhizae ...

It is therefore typically "backward-looking reasoning", which in effect leads to dead ends. Working the land is exhausting. For the man. Women too ... For animals. Or energy intensive, for the same reasons: machines ... (organic or conventional).

So this is not going back! It is to go further! Even if it is always a question of "feeding" a system.
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