The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
dede2002
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by dede2002 » 15/03/19, 03:50

Moindreffor wrote:
Janic wrote: not demanding at all to big phyto.

you should specify the big phyto of synthesis because the bio is big phyto natural, from where the post of grelinette : Mrgreen:


The article does not specify exactly the "specifications" of this new label.
For many consumers, organic is synonymous with "healthy food", but for the (small) producers that I have worked with, it is also and above all the impact on the environment that motivates and fuels the discussions, not only on the side. phyto but also on the fertilization side.

And also, small producers who are not interested in organic label because they have their customers and do not want to bother with paperwork and additional constraints, but who are careful to treat as little as possible.


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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by izentrop » 15/03/19, 08:10

dede2002 wrote:For many consumers, organic is synonymous with "healthy food", but for the (small) producers that I have worked with, it is also and above all the impact on the environment that motivates and fuels the discussions, not only on the side. phyto but also on the fertilization side.
It is obvious that for a conventional farmer, going organic means increasing soil erosion and loss of fertility. They do it because the selling price and the premium are attractive.

This problem could be solved with conservation agriculture (no till and soil still covered). The annoyance is that it is not without risk of overflow by weeds and we must keep a herbicide firefighter solution, something impossible in organic, the scientific basis does not exist.
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by Moindreffor » 15/03/19, 12:47

dede2002 wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:
Janic wrote: not demanding at all to big phyto.

you should specify the big phyto of synthesis because the bio is big phyto natural, from where the post of grelinette : Mrgreen:


The article does not specify exactly the "specifications" of this new label.
For many consumers, organic is synonymous with "healthy food", but for the (small) producers that I have worked with, it is also and above all the impact on the environment that motivates and fuels the discussions, not only on the side. phyto but also on the fertilization side.

And also, small producers who are not interested in organic label because they have their customers and do not want to bother with paperwork and additional constraints, but who are careful to treat as little as possible.

I also think that for an "organic", does treating with a natural product enter into the act of treating? maybe not, since it's natural
where to pay attention :!:
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by izentrop » 15/03/19, 17:18

dede2002 wrote:The article does not specify exactly the "specifications" of this new label.
Grenelle date of the environment and is not unanimous https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute_Val ... _positions
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by to be chafoin » 17/03/19, 00:37

This name gives the impression of a gas factory, resembling "sustainable agriculture"! The criteria are at the same time exhaustive and limited. The 3 levels reinforce the complexity of understanding the "label" ...
It is easy to understand why the objective of the Grenelle de l'Environnement (50% of farms classified as HVE in 2012) turned white: 168 farms classified as HVE in 2015! We can see here how this kind of cooperative ecological transition enterprise, of the “win-win” type (or “everyone gets started and everyone wins!”) Seems doomed to failure.

A remark in relation to the initial article on the subject: it is claimed that the HVE certificate will ensure artisanal production. It's a great idea, but what would be the evaluation criteria? In truth, this concept of artisanal product is currently very vague and sellers are using it galore as a dummy argument for quality. Example that I saw recently on a banner: a pizzeria promotes its "artisan" pizzas. What does it mean ? In reality all the pizzerias are artisanal, I don't know any that sell frozen food for example ... what a hoax, the advertising!

Last note, what is this fashion for bio-bashing? KS presents organic as "no food", Didier is happy as soon as he can skin organic farming, here we have completely buried organic ... Tell me exactly what are the grievances that deserve so much contempt? I know some deviations and reproaches of course but the question is: should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by Janic » 17/03/19, 07:29

here we've literally buried the bio ... Tell me exactly what are the grievances that deserve so much contempt? I know some deviations and reproaches of course but the question is good: should he throw the baby with the bath water?
It's very simple: conservation of the monopoly by big phyto, as in medicine, or in other industrial processes. Keep control of all these sectors, without sharing, like any "good" monopoly and therefore like any trade in legal or illegal drugs.
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by izentrop » 17/03/19, 08:40

to be chafoin wrote:What is this bio-bashing trend? KS presents organic as "no food", Didier is happy as soon as he can skin organic farming, here we have completely buried organic ... Tell me exactly what are the grievances that deserve so much contempt? I know some deviations and reproaches of course but the question is: should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Do not reverse the facts: fashion is bio ...
that derives from a consumer desire, based on notions of popular common sense but which in fact is based on empirical notions, also uses pesticides sometimes more harmful to the environment and in large scale crops causes more soil erosion (fight mechanics against weeds) and an impoverishment due to the fact that the exports are not sufficiently compensated by the inputs.KS even talks about yield divided by 5. That's why in France, the 5% who make it are attracted only by higher selling prices and premium ... that the state has a lot of trouble to pay.

It is also true that conventional agriculture is not sustainable either and that the techniques of "never plowed, always covered" are really the durable solution which can reconcile everyone.

A transition to this method of agriculture and market gardening should be generalized as quickly as possible. The new Minister of Agriculture does not want to hear about it and we understand it: it will cause a big shortfall in the "big phyto" precisely.
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by perseus » 17/03/19, 09:44

Hello,

to be chafoin wrote:This name gives the impression of a gas factory, resembling "sustainable agriculture"! The criteria are at the same time exhaustive and limited. The 3 levels reinforce the complexity of understanding the "label" ...
It is easy to understand why the objective of the Grenelle de l'Environnement (50% of farms classified as HVE in 2012) turned white: 168 farms classified as HVE in 2015! We can see here how this kind of cooperative ecological transition enterprise, of the “win-win” type (or “everyone gets started and everyone wins!”) Seems doomed to failure.

A remark in relation to the initial article on the subject: it is claimed that the HVE certificate will ensure artisanal production. It's a great idea, but what would be the evaluation criteria? In truth, this concept of artisanal product is currently very vague and sellers are using it galore as a dummy argument for quality. Example that I saw recently on a banner: a pizzeria promotes its "artisan" pizzas. What does it mean ? In reality all the pizzerias are artisanal, I don't know any that sell frozen food for example ... what a hoax, the advertising!


The concept of artisanal product is indeed very vague. The pizzeria can very well make a pizza in a traditional way by using industrial products of poor quality. A frozen business can very well make a pizza using excellent sourcing products.

HVE has had little success so far but it seems to me that it is changing right now. By talking with those who are on the subject around me, the number of training / certification requests in HVE is almost multiplied by 10 in 2019. The system will not sell more but will, I think, become a market access condition soon. It could be the same for organic.
At the phyto level, it is clear that the requirement is not of the same nature as organic. HVE mainly takes the entry key to IFTs. On the other hand, it can prove to be more severe on other parameters (fertilization, ZNT, social norms etc etc). However, this "certification" will create a kind of vehicle that the legislator will surely be able to develop later.

]
Last note, what is this fashion for bio-bashing? KS presents organic as "no food", Didier is happy as soon as he can skin organic farming, here we have completely buried organic ... Tell me exactly what are the grievances that deserve so much contempt? I know some deviations and reproaches of course but the question is: should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?


Who loves well chatises as well :-)
Organic remains in fact the dominant "fashion" on the net. Criticizing it remains quite complicated. But we hear a little more criticism of it than before. I think he is criticized in particular for an initial approach that is a little too dogmatic: natural product = Good, synthetic product = Bad, the use of tillage almost as systematic as the use of phyto in the Conventional. Certain parameters of this "dogmatism" constitute a kind of cleavage likely to slow down global evolutions which could be positive.
For my part, what bores me is usually a powerfully Manichean spirit of some supporters of Bio, which is reminiscent of the hours of Maccarthyism or the subtlety of GW Bush: if you are not with us then you are the axis of evil. : Mrgreen:

If everyone went "Bio" we would surely see an emergence of "super organic" with arguments like "true original Bio" or let's find out what.

These criticisms should not, however, hide the fact that the whole Bio movement has constituted and still constitutes a saving spur to move opinions and consciences. As I said elsewhere, the best organic producers that I have to meet in my field, they are sacred technicians and in their case, the best benefit of Bio has been to encourage them to ask questions about what they did, why, and how.

@+
Last edited by perseus the 17 / 03 / 19, 09: 47, 1 edited once.
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by Janic » 17/03/19, 09:45

Do not reverse the facts: fashion is bio ...
Organic is not a fashion but an awareness.
Ecology, considered as a fad of babacool, has turned into a humanitarian emergency. These kids who come out of school to claim a better future, but who looks rather black, only find that their elders did not realize, they, the urgency of changing the ways of doing things instituted by the economy and the economy alone. Whether in agriculture, medicine or simply energy wasting pollutant.
which stems from a desire of the consumers, based on the notions of common sense but which in reality is based on empirical notions,
Organic farming, the real, the most organic, is based on the work of qualified agronomists, not on DIY amateur gardeners. Except to consider that agriculture, in general, is empirical too.
also uses pesticides that are sometimes more harmful to the environment and in large crops causes more soil erosion (mechanical fight against weeds)
and go again ! Adventist issues usually arise when farming changes when nature recovers. But most Adventists are repairers of human stupidity with its selective cultures. Did had to develop this point there !?
and impoverishment due to the fact that exports are not sufficiently offset by inputs.
This aspect only occurs when the meaning and role of the AB (not the logo) is misunderstood and farmers converted to organic (salon label) have understood nothing of the reasons and meaning of this change.
KS even talks about yield divided by 5.
It does not mean anything because it's like comparing an obese 5 times heavier than a lambda individual of the same size. Their weight is actually different, but being overweight is not a sign of health.
That's why in France, 5% who make are only attracted by the higher selling prices and the premium ... that the state has a lot of trouble paying.
Reasoning breathed by Big phyto from start to finish! It is true that some are motivated by the higher selling price, but this also requires a lot more work and therefore labor. High price is not synonymous with profit especially as most farms are not huge to catch up on quantity. But organic productions are sufficient, on a national scale like ours, to feed SA population, not to export for any purpose.


For my part, what annoys me is usually a powerful Manichean spirit of some supporters of Bio, which is reminiscent of the hours of Maccarthyism or the subtlety of GW Bush: if you're not with us then you're the axis of evil.

If there may be exaggeration (which, for what seems exaggeration is only from the point of view of the conventional) in a sense, this does not justify either exaggeration in the other.

If everyone went "Bio" we would surely see an emergence of "super organic" with arguments like "true original Bio" or let's find out what.

This is what Did claims with his " More than organic "(Understood by the label that should have been specified). In all societies, any initial requirement is misguided for many reasons that are ignorant most often.
For the anecdote: a maraicher came to offer me bio (40 years ago), but when I told him that in order to market it, (before the organic label) he would have to respect the rules of bio defined by the associations of organic farmers, of that time, (kind Nature and Progress) and so he should wait 5 years before hoping to sell his products in organic and again if there was more remanence of the products that he was currently using.
I did not hear about it anymore. For him bio meant more chemicals, that's all!
These criticisms should not, however, hide the fact that the whole Bio movement has constituted and still constitutes a saving spur to move opinions and consciences. As I have said elsewhere, the best organic producers I know in my field, they are sacred technicians and in their case, the best benefit of organic was to encourage them to ask questions about what he was doing , why, and how.
absolutely! But only now with the explosion of ecology in its different aspects. Before the bio was combaattu, ridiculed with the same arguments as today, but the people are less and less entreated to trap junk food and claim more quality
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Re: The BIO is dead ... Long live the HVE!




by Moindreffor » 17/03/19, 11:50

to be chafoin wrote:Last note, what is this fashion for bio-bashing? KS presents organic as "no food", Didier is happy as soon as he can skin organic farming, here we have completely buried organic ... Tell me exactly what are the grievances that deserve so much contempt? I know some deviations and reproaches of course but the question is: should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

simply because the consumer wanting organic, it was given, but at what price
always pushed by the consumer the governments wanted to develop the bio, or we subsidized at the beginning, but when the crates are empty we can not therefore we choose the other way, we lightened the specifications
result of the "organic" small farmer naturally cultivating his land, we have gone to mass organic, greenhouses of dozens of hectares with cultivation on nutritious medium such as rock wool, the "real" organic as Janic calls it exists always but remains very confidential, suddenly the image of "organic" took a big hit
more to always want to compare the organic, the conventional, being certain to be better, we found ourselves confronted with the truth, the bio is certainly without pesticides, but is not the guarantee to be better in other areas, the analyzes have proved it, and another argument of bio that has been chipped
so the beautiful image of Epinal has taken a big blow, as said above to mean that all that is not organic is wrong, the bio is locked in considerations of superiority that it n has not been able to hold or can no longer hold
of course it remains in fashion for lack of another candidate, but it does not take off any more except the organic "low coast" greenhouses, is this what we want as organic?
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