Our participatory garden in Moselle

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
emilio57
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 54
Registration: 18/07/19, 17:45
x 6

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View emilio57 » 14/09/19, 14:28

Did67 wrote:]


Hello DIdier,

can you explain when we need to cover the ground before or after winter?

please
0 x
emilio57
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 54
Registration: 18/07/19, 17:45
x 6

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View emilio57 » 23/09/19, 19:13

Good evening,

Half spetembre. We leave in place the sunflowers, upright beans and tomatoes to fix nitrogen to the soil during the winter.
The empty plots will be sown with winter vegetables or green manure (sunflower for now).

For the OM, we therefore have hay, straw, mowing grass and we will recover the leaves of trees as soon as they fall.
I understood on the one hand, the interest of the cover against weeds, but also to nourish the ground. It is just the moment which escapes me.
All for the hay, according to the vegetable garden of the sloth, I must reread in more detail, but I did not understand when was the ideal period to have all the benefit of phenoculture, (page 237 it is indicated not to put the hay too early. I understand the arguments cited but then, "putting it too late, at the end of winter" is not a good idea either "

Here, I think therefore to cover and prepare the plots for next year, with straw, grass and leaves.
But hay, when would it be optimal?


Thank you
0 x
emilio57
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 54
Registration: 18/07/19, 17:45
x 6

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View emilio57 » 24/09/19, 07:05

emilio57 wrote:Good evening,

Half spetembre. We will cut a few cm, to leave in place the feet of sunflowers and tomatoes to fix nitrogen to the soil during the winter. For rising beans, does it work as well?
The empty plots will be sown with winter vegetables or green manure (sunflower for now).

For the OM, we therefore have hay, straw, mowing grass and we will recover the leaves of trees as soon as they fall.
I understood on the one hand, the interest of the cover against weeds, but also to nourish the ground. It is just the moment which escapes me.
All for the hay, according to the vegetable garden of the sloth, I must reread in more detail, but I did not understand when was the ideal period to have all the benefit of phenoculture, (page 237 it is indicated not to put the hay too early. I understand the arguments cited but then, "putting it too late, at the end of winter" is not a good idea either "

Here, I think therefore to cover and prepare the plots for next year, with straw, grass and leaves.
But hay, when would it be optimal?


Thank you
0 x
emilio57
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 54
Registration: 18/07/19, 17:45
x 6

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View emilio57 » 24/09/19, 07:05

Good evening,

Half spetembre. We will cut a few cm, to leave in place the feet of sunflowers and tomatoes to fix nitrogen to the soil during the winter. For rising beans, does it work as well?
The empty plots will be sown with winter vegetables or green manure (sunflower for now).

For the OM, we therefore have hay, straw, mowing grass and we will recover the leaves of trees as soon as they fall.
I understood on the one hand, the interest of the cover against weeds, but also to nourish the ground. It is just the moment which escapes me.
All for the hay, according to the vegetable garden of the sloth, I must reread in more detail, but I did not understand when was the ideal period to have all the benefit of phenoculture, (page 237 it is indicated not to put the hay too early. I understand the arguments cited but then, "putting it too late, at the end of winter" is not a good idea either "

Here, I think therefore to cover and prepare the plots for next year, with straw, grass and leaves.
But hay, when would it be optimal?


Thank you
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12353
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 3042

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View Ahmed » 24/09/19, 10:07

It is enough to know that what is sought with hay is a durable cover during the growing season and a retention of the organic matter it contains until the date of these crops. This therefore excludes an intake in early autumn, since the bacteria are active at this time and would begin to degrade the hay and therefore to release nutrients which will be leached in pure loss (since there is no active vegetation to enjoy it). At the end of autumn, the optimal conditions for spreading are in place.
Once we understand (this is not an indirect criticism!) The mechanisms involved, it is possible to go beyond the "recipe" aspect which is necessarily reductive and does not allow (when it is judicious!) to adapt only to very specific cases, and this in a mechanical way which does not conform to the functioning of living organisms (weather conditions have a great influence and such advice will or will not be adapted according to its variations) ...
2 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
emilio57
I understand econologic
I understand econologic
posts: 54
Registration: 18/07/19, 17:45
x 6

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View emilio57 » 24/09/19, 10:40

Ahmed wrote:It is enough to know that what is sought with hay is a durable cover during the growing season and a retention of the organic matter it contains until the date of these crops. This therefore excludes an intake in early autumn, since the bacteria are active at this time and would begin to degrade the hay and therefore to release nutrients which will be leached in pure loss (since there is no active vegetation to enjoy it). At the end of autumn, the optimal conditions for spreading are in place.
Once we understand (this is not an indirect criticism!) The mechanisms involved, it is possible to go beyond the "recipe" aspect which is necessarily reductive and does not allow (when it is judicious!) to adapt only to very specific cases, and this in a mechanical way which does not conform to the functioning of living organisms (weather conditions have a great influence and such advice will or will not be adapted according to its variations) ...


Hello Ahmed
yes I see, thank you for this answer. In the East we normally have a rainy autumn and a snowy winter. But in recent years it's been rather dry. So we can't even anticipate with the climate.


Otherwise I will reread Didier's book and try to understand a little more the great mysteries of the living
0 x
User avatar
to be chafoin
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1202
Registration: 20/05/18, 23:11
Location: Gironde
x 97

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View to be chafoin » 24/09/19, 16:55

... And so basically if you have a soil where you have already cultivated, you can put the hay quite late (end of winter, beginning of spring) or even very late (at the time of planting). Double benefit: you keep the energy of the hay and the natural weeds that can grow recover the nitrates and "nourish" the soil by rhizodeposition. You just have to "sort" the weeds before mowing at the last moment.
If it is a soil where grassland type vegetation grows, it may be better to put it earlier in order to subdue the grasses (in winter). But it depends on what you put after probably. I managed to grow tomatoes on meadow with hay laid in May.
If you want to take advantage of the hay mineralization (for example for demanding crops) it probably takes a few weeks and a lot of water for the hay to start to decompose. It is this same reason which explains the fall leaching of nitrates mentioned by Ahmed and therefore the advice not to put the hay too early to avoid pollution and wastage of nutrients if possible.
So it's up to you to gauge according to all these elements (rain, available water, soil, crops ...)!
1 x
VetusLignum
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 1690
Registration: 27/11/18, 23:38
x 762

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View VetusLignum » 24/09/19, 17:56

For my part, I think that the ground must be covered permanently, all year round.
In my garden, there is nevertheless an exception, I discover in May or June when planting or sowing, to better manage the attacks of slugs and birds; but it’s not happy.
I don't believe in the idea that with winter cover there would be nutrient leaching.
On the one hand, the cover slows down the rain; on the other hand, it decomposes slowly; and finally, I count on earthworms to mix organic matter with mineral matter, to make them stable aggregates.
And if we fear the leaching of nitrogen, then we can put a more carbon cover than hay.
1 x
VetusLignum
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 1690
Registration: 27/11/18, 23:38
x 762

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View VetusLignum » 24/09/19, 18:07

emilio57 wrote:Half spetembre. We will cut a few cm, to leave in place the feet of sunflowers and tomatoes to fix nitrogen to the soil during the winter. For rising beans, does it work as well?
The empty plots will be sown with winter vegetables or green manure (sunflower for now).


A priori, all these plants should die in the first cold of winter.

It is necessary to distinguish the (symbiotic) fixation of nitrogen from the air; what legumes like vetch do; and the sequestration of soil nitrogen (to avoid leaching); what other plants do, including mustard or rye.
0 x
User avatar
Did67
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 20362
Registration: 20/01/08, 16:34
Location: Alsace
x 8685

Re: Our Participatory Garden in Moselle




View Did67 » 25/09/19, 12:40

emilio57 wrote:
green manure (sunflower for now).



The sunflower does not spend the winter with us: it is a "summer" plant, which is sown in the spring, after the frosts (April).

You haven't confused with rapeseed, which is sown in the fall and spends the winter, like rye and wheat ...?
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Agriculture: problems and pollution, new techniques and solutions"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 116 guests