New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
Moindreffor
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 01/06/18, 21:21

to be chafoin wrote:Very! But show that to someone before giving them the vegetable, they will think twice!
Good it is true that at least you have a vegetable, but good!

it's just a big grain of salt that will eventually dissolve with rainwater, it looks like bird droppings but it is not : Mrgreen:
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 01/06/18, 21:56

Moindreffor wrote:it's just a big grain of salt that will eventually dissolve with rainwater, it looks like bird droppings but it is not : Mrgreen:
Yes the image is quite well found! That's what I said: beuark!
As for salt, I don't really see the relationship between sodium and iron phosphate ...
Good beyond the aesthetic aspect (and still not as effective as that, according to my tests, unless I am vigilant), it is true that I am a little wary of this product.
Well, it's true that on the internet you find what you want to find, but, concerning pets:
"Ferric phosphate, often presented as a safe product on the packaging, is less dangerous, but can cause salivation, vomiting and diarrhea, and if swallowed heavily can cause hepatitis." according to: https: //www.centre-antipoison-animal.com/les-antilimaces.html
Also, I wonder the effect that Ferramol causes on an earthworm for example ...
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 02/06/18, 08:43

to be chafoin wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:it's just a big grain of salt that will eventually dissolve with rainwater, it looks like bird droppings but it is not : Mrgreen:
Yes the image is quite well found! That's what I said: beuark!
As for salt,I don't really see the relationship between sodium and iron phosphate ...
Good beyond the aesthetic aspect (and still not as effective as that, according to my tests, unless I am vigilant), it is true that I am a little wary of this product.
Well, it's true that on the internet you find what you want to find, but, concerning pets:
"Ferric phosphate, often presented as a safe product on the packaging, is less dangerous, but can cause salivation, vomiting and diarrhea, and during significant ingestion can cause hepatitis. "according to: https: //www.centre-antipoison-animal.com/les-antilimaces.html
Also, I wonder the effect that Ferramol causes on an earthworm for example ...

iron phosphate is a mineral salt, shortened by chemist to a salt, it is true that for some years now the term "salt" has only been used for sodium chloride or cooking salt, but iron phosphate is a salt for a chemist like me : Mrgreen:

significant ingestion, for an animal, that is why it should not be made into heaps, but scatter it

attention to give precautions of use the researchers make swallow very very large quantities to their guinea pigs, for aspartame if I remember, it was dangerous for the man if he swallowed 2 or 3 boxes per day , compared to your 2 or 3 per cup of coffee, there is a certain margin
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 02/06/18, 10:24

Moindreffor wrote:iron phosphate is a mineral salt, shortened by chemist to a salt, it is true that for some years now the term "salt" has only been used for sodium chloride or cooking salt, but iron phosphate is a salt for a chemist like me : Mrgreen:
Ok thank you for the info, I am not a specialist, I like to learn and I prefer not to die silly! :D That said, on the merits, we cannot really say that Ferramol is a salt since this product contains only 1% ferric phosphate! Do you know what the remaining 99% contains? The source of the Neudorff company does not mention it ...
Moindreffor wrote:attention to give precautions of use the researchers make swallow very very large quantities to their guinea pigs, for aspartame if I remember, it was dangerous for the man if he swallowed 2 or 3 boxes per day , compared to your 2 or 3 per cup of coffee, there is a certain margin
Yes, but according to the same source, the product has only been tested on rats (toxic) and on rabbits (non-toxic) by ingestion and contact. My questioning here did not relate to domestic animals, nor to humans, but to the whole of soil life that an approach to gardening in living soil seeks to promote.
https://k3d.fr/fichiers/FERRAMOL-FT.pdf
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Moindreffor » 02/06/18, 13:47

to be chafoin wrote:
Moindreffor wrote:iron phosphate is a mineral salt, shortened by chemist to a salt, it is true that for some years now the term "salt" has only been used for sodium chloride or cooking salt, but iron phosphate is a salt for a chemist like me : Mrgreen:
Ok thank you for the info, I am not a specialist, I like to learn and I prefer not to die silly! :D That said, on the merits, we cannot really say that Ferramol is a salt since this product contains only 1% ferric phosphate! Do you know what the remaining 99% contains? The source of the Neudorff company does not mention it ...
Moindreffor wrote:attention to give precautions of use the researchers make swallow very very large quantities to their guinea pigs, for aspartame if I remember, it was dangerous for the man if he swallowed 2 or 3 boxes per day , compared to your 2 or 3 per cup of coffee, there is a certain margin
Yes, but according to the same source, the product has only been tested on rats (toxic) and on rabbits (non-toxic) by ingestion and contact. My questioning here did not relate to domestic animals, nor to humans, but to the whole of soil life that an approach to gardening in living soil seeks to promote.
https://k3d.fr/fichiers/FERRAMOL-FT.pdf

there are phosphate ions and ferrous ions naturally in the soil, the excess phosphate causes enormous plant development (eutrophication by green algae in watercourses) and iron is concentrated not in spinach but in parsley for example, so if these ions were harmful to the life of the soil, well a lot of soil would be sterile
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by youskar » 05/06/18, 06:03

to be chafoin wrote:
Youskar wrote:[Img [imIMG_0475.JPGg] [/ img]]
: Cry: Frankly it's disgusting! I don't put Feramol anymore, I still have a box lying around, but I remember that I tried to avoid putting it on the leaves otherwise ...


I am not sure if it was the fact that I put the "package" in ferramol, I will take more pictures, but it is more of the fiante than the ferramol in "reaction" 
In fact if it’s boastful, are my vegetables still edible? And given the amount of fools, the energumene must not be in good shape if you see what I mean.
This is the first time this has happened to me, the rains that are expected for the next few days may wash away the thing.
Thank you for your answers.
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 05/06/18, 08:01

to be chafoin wrote:Well, it's true that on the internet you find what you want to find, but, concerning pets:
"Ferric phosphate, often presented as a safe product on the packaging, is less dangerous, but can cause salivation, vomiting and diarrhea, and if swallowed heavily can cause hepatitis." according to: https: //www.centre-antipoison-animal.com/les-antilimaces.html
Also, I wonder the effect that Ferramol causes on an earthworm for example ...


1) Nothing is perfect in this world! So the green kmehrs will always find fault. Even that an excess of dihydrogen oxide (H²0) is harmful ... And indeed, someone who drinks water all the time would demineralize ...

2) It's true. But the following sentence is also interesting:

If your dog has swallowed metaldehyde or methiocarb, you must quickly contact your veterinarian or CAPAE-Ouest to decide what to do depending on the amount ingested, so that he is taken care of if necessary as soon as possible. . If it is ferramol, the risk is lower, but veterinary treatment may nevertheless be necessary in case of gastroenteritis


Note the "may" ... as opposed to "it is necessary to quickly contact ..."

3) So for some animals accidental ingestion can be a problem. I don't have the packaging in front of me, but normally there is a "bitter" to prevent ingestion by pets and to avoid this.

4) On the other hand, its decomposition on site cannot generate environmental or soil problems, since this gives phosphate and iron ions, both already present.

And there, that changes everything!

Metaldehyde is harmful to the environment, amphibians, etc.

So without naivety, and without saying that there is NO danger (I may have said and written it; it is then by mistake, thinking only of the living system "garden" - thus the soil and his hosts), that seems minor to me. The "nuisance / benefit" ratio seems very favorable to me.

5) Worms, indeed, I don't know. I don't know if they take it. Research to be done. Because otherwise, if they ingest it, the risk of it having the same effect as on the slug, blocking their appetite, cannot be excluded at all. Research is needed to see if there is data. Because if that were the case, it would change things!

We don't play in the same division!
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 05/06/18, 08:06

to be chafoin wrote:Yes, but according to the same source, the product has only been tested on rats (toxic) and on rabbits (non-toxic) by ingestion and contact. My questioning here did not relate to domestic animals, nor to humans, but to the whole of soil life that an approach to gardening in living soil seeks to promote.
https://k3d.fr/fichiers/FERRAMOL-FT.pdf


Unfortunately, this is still the case because an MA (Marketing Authorization) file is "standardized" ...

Somewhere in a lab, a researcher should have asked the same question as us (is ferric phosphate harmful to worms?) And ... searched! Finally, before, found funding to look for something that does not interest manufacturers!

If harmfulness on earthworms or on fungi was a criterion, copper sulphate has been banned for a long time!
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by Did67 » 05/06/18, 08:13

Here, some answers to questions (but seen from the point of view of the manufacturers, even if it is taken up by an independent newspaper - Phytoma):

https://www.certiseurope.fr/fileadmin/d ... hytoma.pdf

- SluXx is durum wheat dough formulated by way
wet with 3% phosphate added
ferric (Fe3PO4)), natural active substance.
The granules are obtained by an extrusion process specific to Neudorff which provides them
strong resistance to disintegration in situations
wet, without affecting their palatability. Their size
is 2 to 3 mm long and 2 mm in diameter.
A dose of 7 kg / ha provides 66 pellets / m²,
or good surface coverage.


[this is the "large surface" version of Ferramol. So you find the recommended dosage!]

Toxicological characteristics
and ecotoxicological
This product has low acute toxicities
and chronic. In terms of ecotoxicity, it is very
selective vertebrates (birds, mammals),
earthworms and soil insects.
He respects
aquatic organisms (Table 1).
Various tests have been carried out to measure the impact of the product on the life of the soil, in particular the
earthworms. Their results show the absence
impact on earthworm populations at
short or medium term (Figures 1a and 1b).


Note that "low toxicity" does not mean zero. And that consequently, it "can", as we have just seen ...

I remind you that salt has a low toxicity, that alcohol has a high toxicity, that smoke also (in salted / smoked products)! Or the nitrites from the ham we give to our children (well - those who are not vegetarians).
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Re: New kitchen garden lazy (Schiltigheim 67300)




by to be chafoin » 05/06/18, 21:40

Youskar wrote:it is more of the fiante than the ferramol in "reaction" 
In fact if it’s boastful, are my vegetables still edible? And given the amount of fools, the energumene must not be in good shape if you see what I mean.
Ah! It is true that it is not the same color! : Lol: More gray ... Do you have chickens or others who wander around perhaps? Perhaps a pigeon type bird ... It is true that the leaf looks a little burnt ... Theoretically, certain diseases can be transmitted to humans by droppings (pigeon). But hey, pathogens (fungi, bacteria ...) should first pass into the plant ... then into your body via the vegetable ... It seems unlikely to me but I am not a specialist.
A page found on the net to read until the end before making your own opinion on the transmission direct to humans from infections: http://forums.futura-sciences.com/biolo ... geons.html
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