How to start a "Lazy Vegetable Garden" easier than permaculture: steps and advice

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
jft78
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by jft78 » 18/08/19, 11:14

Did67 wrote:If you spread it, it will start to decompose, the soil being still warm and the humidity returning.

This has two consequences:

a) there won't be much left for the next season - and that can upset you; in return, the life of the soil will already be improved and a start of deterioration may occur ...

b) mineralization will begin, with nitrification; risk of leaching of these nitrates during the winter, therefore pollution; So yes, it is then necessary to install "CIPAN" (nitrate trap crops), such as mustard or buckwheat (non-legumes).

If you only put out at winter, you must indeed protect, otherwise it will break down into a heap - in short, compost! Much of the energy will be gone in the spring. You will have the minerals that have not been leached and prehumic or humic substances ...



OK, thank you Didier.
Indeed, this is what I understood.
If I sow a green manure in the hay, can I sow it directly (on the fly), or in a row like we would for any vegetable? Or else, do I sow first and then spread the hay?
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by Did67 » 18/08/19, 12:12

It depends on the thickness.

If you put on a "good layer", alas, your green manure will suffer the same inconveniences as most weeds: it will not germinate, or very badly ...

If you just put in a "dusting" the weeds will not be controlled, but the green manures will grow! But you will have few "effects" (expected).

To get started, I would put the hay in a good layer, even a very good layer. And a little later (October), I would "tear" the cutlery in lines spaced 30/40 cm apart, with a tear (as is the case, with a hook tool at the end of a handle) and I would sow in there, loose, and thick ... Green manure seeds are not worth expensive, you can afford to lose a little (no need to buy buckwheat or rye seeds at a golden price; buy a bag of "organic" seeds in a store; these seeds germinate; and the acronym is worth € 2,50 per kg!). Mustard is bought in a 1 kg packet ...
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by jft78 » 18/08/19, 13:03

Did67 wrote:To get started, I would put the hay in a good layer, even a very good layer. And a little later (October), I would "tear" the cutlery in lines spaced 30/40 cm apart, with a tear (as is the case, with a hook tool at the end of a handle) and I would sow in there, loose, and thick ... Green manure seeds are not worth expensive, you can afford to lose a little (no need to buy buckwheat or rye seeds at a golden price; buy a bag of "organic" seeds in a store; these seeds germinate; and the acronym is worth € 2,50 per kg!). Mustard is bought in a 1 kg packet ...


Yes OK.
A thickness of 30cm, immediately and compacting a little. Then a green manure in October, that's fine with me.
And it would also allow me to see what area I will be able to cover with the hay I received.
Great, thank you.
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by to be chafoin » 18/08/19, 17:44

I advise to choose the green manure well in this case, because for example the rye, from what I understand, must be sown early (from now and in September). This is only worth from what I have read and my experience (my rye sowing in the fall has rather failed) ... maybe elsewhere it goes better in October.?
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by Did67 » 18/08/19, 17:56

Yes.

I too was too late last year.

In "cereal farming", we sow late (October / early November): above all, we do not want the plant to develop too much, because its resistance to the cold is maximum when the seedling remains very small (3 or 4 leaves, it is then shaved like a mowed lawn!).

https://lozere.chambre-agriculture.fr/f ... _froid.pdf

In the case of use in CIPAN, it is better for it to be more developed, in particular its roots. So if I don't forget, this year, I will do it sooner, indeed.
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by jft78 » 18/08/19, 23:26

Yes, I could sow maybe at the end of September.
One year, I had sown mustard and phacelia in October. It worked well and lasted until spring. Even phacelia which is however quite sensitive to frost, it seems to me (at least, more than mustard).
Here in the Yvelines, winters have now become "mild". It is really rare that it goes down to -5 ° (under shelter). On the ground, I don't know, never tested.
But hey, first phase, this week: I tackle the hay blanket ... the evening after work!
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by Valerie Normandy » 05/02/20, 17:30

Did67 wrote:
Ahmed wrote:Juglone is a powerful substance,



The question, as I understood it, relates to the BRF of walnut. Do you know if it accumulates in the branches ???


Hello,
This is a question that I have been asking myself for some time. My vegetable garden, covered with hay, is partly under a walnut tree. My entry into phenoculture dates only from 2 seasons. The results may seem disappointing. Everything seems miniature, except the beans which come well. I am told it is the fault of your walnut and the famous juglone. However, I saw, in Haute-Vienne, vegetable gardens also under walnut trees which were doing very well without chemical inputs, according to the owners. And then I tell myself that nettles, ivy, dandelions, brambles and other wild plants are doing well in the interstices of my hay blanket so why not my vegetables. Reading the document indicated by Ahmed I see that the beans do not seem embarrassed, but the potatoes yes.
Well, we must also admit that for 2 years the climatic conditions have not helped either.
Good overall it does not bother me more than that my production is ridiculous format, for now all this is only fun for me, but it damn intrigues me. Anyone have any advice or feedback on the subject?
Thank you
Valérie
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Valerie Normandy
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by Valerie Normandy » 05/02/20, 17:35

Did67 wrote:
Ahmed wrote:Juglone is a powerful substance,



The question, as I understood it, relates to the BRF of walnut. Do you know if it accumulates in the branches ???


Hello,
This is a question that I have been asking myself for some time. My vegetable garden, covered with hay, is partly under a walnut tree. My entry into phenoculture dates only from 2 seasons. The results may seem disappointing. Everything seems miniature, except the beans which come well. I am told it is the fault of your walnut and the famous juglone. However, I saw, in Haute-Vienne, vegetable gardens also under walnut trees which were doing very well without chemical inputs, according to the owners. And then I tell myself that nettles, ivy, dandelions, brambles and other wild plants are doing well in the interstices of my hay blanket so why not my vegetables. Reading the document indicated by Ahmed I see that the beans do not seem embarrassed, but the potatoes yes.
Well, we must also admit that for 2 years the climatic conditions have not helped either.
Good overall it does not bother me more than that my production is ridiculous format, for now all this is only fun for me, but it damn intrigues me. Anyone have any advice or feedback on the subject?
Thank you
Valérie
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by GuyGadebois » 05/02/20, 17:40

Valérie Normandie wrote:
Did67 wrote:
Ahmed wrote:Juglone is a powerful substance,



The question, as I understood it, relates to the BRF of walnut. Do you know if it accumulates in the branches ???


Hello,
This is a question that I have been asking myself for some time. My vegetable garden, covered with hay, is partly under a walnut tree.

Hello, as far as I know, there is not much that grows under a walnut tree because of a poison produced by this tree called "juglone" and I have always been told that it should not be neither nap underneath, nor plant anything edible. Others here, much more knowledgeable than me, will be able to confirm or deny what I have just written.
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Re: How to start a "Lazy Potager" simpler than permaculture: steps and tips




by GuyGadebois » 05/02/20, 17:42

Valérie Normandie wrote:
Hello,
This is a question that I have been asking myself for some time. My vegetable garden, covered with hay, is partly under a walnut tree.

Hello, as far as I know, there is not much that grows under a walnut tree because of a poison (as Ahmed said) produced by this tree called "juglone" and I am always said you shouldn't take a nap underneath or plant anything edible. Others here, much more knowledgeable than me, will be able to confirm or deny what I have just written.
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“It is better to mobilize your intelligence on bullshit than to mobilize your bullshit on intelligent things. (J.Rouxel)
"By definition the cause is the product of the effect". (Tryphion)
"360 / 000 / 0,5 is 100 million and not 72 million" (AVC)

 


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