Vegetable garden of the lazy in Haute-Saône

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Did67
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by Did67 » 18/07/17, 14:57

ilguimat wrote: this waste provides phosphorus in the compost (well I would not put forward any quantified certainties on this point).


The bones, that's for sure! It's calcium phosphate. But, and fortunately, insoluble ... So it would be necessary to grind them very finely and "attack" them with fungi (whose endings secrete acids capable of "dissolving" insoluble elements).

Crustaceans are calcium carbonate, of little interest except acid soils.

Meat is mainly proteins, at the risk of putrefaction and therefore bad odors (areobiosis or not, that does not change anything; a corpse which decomposes in the air produces "putrescines" and other "cadaverines" and other odoriferous molecules) ... And that, some pests smell it very well and from afar!
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by chatelot16 » 18/07/17, 17:25

there is no phosphorus only in the bones ... it is necessary that there is also in the plants ... otherwise how our bones could be formed
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by Did67 » 18/07/17, 18:44

I'm still not bad at this point !!!

Of course. And if not, why would we be concerned about "phosphate fertilization" if there was no P in plants, where animals find it!

I just answered that:

"because the reliefs of meat-type meals (leftover meat, bones, shellfishs ...) I bury them in the heart of the bin .... In addition, this waste provides phosphorus in the compost (well I would not move no certainties figures on this point). "
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by sicetaitsimple » 18/07/17, 19:17

ilguimat wrote:Hello to everyone,

First situation and nature of the land = located in a wetland a few hundred meters from the Ognon, our river, and near the catchment areas of the town. The ground is clay / limestone (marl) with relative predominances depending on the situation I think. Among the spontaneous bioindicators = the horsetail arrives in a good position, so no doubt about the residual humidity and the presence of water tables. Besides, 2016 was catastrophic, with total anoxia.
One of the main risks = tendency to hydromorphism if the water is not well managed, and that therefore requires in my opinion, and confirmed by my observations, an adaptation of the permaculture practice in general and of the "pheno-practices" in particular.

- despite a cover of hay and dead leaves all winter, the soil has compacted all the same. I call it "hydraulic compaction" linked not to the beat of the rains I think, but to the aggregation of the earth by water ("the pottery"). A little bit of grelinette, so without upsetting the ground and it is in order;



Hello,

I am not a specialist, far from it, but in this type of terrain is it wise to cover all winter (risk of "fossilization" of organic matter?).
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by ilguimat » 20/07/17, 11:55

sicétésimple wrote:
Hello,

I am not a specialist, far from it, but in this type of terrain is it wise to cover all winter (risk of "fossilization" of organic matter?).


[edit Did67: correction of citation tags; without change of texts]

This is indeed the question I ask myself. This is why I think I am moving towards a mixed method of green manure / hay. In fact, the ideal scheme would be to be able to absorb and store, in one way or another, the excess water during the wet period, in order to be able to restore it during the dry period. I am certain that certain farmers or market gardeners, at the helm of a heavy clay or hydromorphic soil, were able to find the martingale and make an initial defect a major asset in water management in particular.
I saw it mentioned in a youtube video, unfortunately no details on the method used.
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by Did67 » 20/07/17, 12:13

sicetaitsimple wrote:
Hello,

I am not a specialist, far from it, but in this type of terrain is it wise to cover all winter (risk of "fossilization" of organic matter?).


"Fossilization" is a bit of an exaggeration and scary.

What we risk, in hydromorphic soils (a soil whose processes are dominated by a permanent or regular excess of water is hydromorphic; it is not a temporarily flooded or waterlogged soil!), It is a formation of substances humics of poor quality, the "humins". Everyone has been able to observe these very dark, black valley-bottom soils when they are plowed (traditionally, they were not, but today, with the mania of replacing natural meadows with corn silage in the area. breeding, this is seen more and more often - often with stuck tractors or traces of tractors that almost got stuck!).

We often imagine that these are very very fertile soils, like market garden soils. But it is not. It is an accumulation of very black humic substances, but not of the best quality ...

The major risk in the present situation is too long drying out at the end of winter / early spring. It is a very very cold soil (clays have a high density; if we add water, we have a considerable mass to heat; then when it is covered, it will put leades ...).

And this is why, contrary to my habits, I recommended possibly "ridging", which is not the same thing as "making mounds! We dig at the level of the alleys and we carry the earth back to the in the middle of the board, on the ground in place. Suddenly, the board takes on a rounded appearance, which facilitates the drainage of excess water. And suddenly, reduces the "defects" noted above!
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by Did67 » 20/07/17, 12:25

ilguimat wrote:
This is indeed the question I ask myself. This is why I think I am moving towards a mixed method of green manure / hay. In fact, the ideal scheme would be to be able to absorb and store, in one way or another, the excess water during the wet period, in order to be able to restore it during the dry period. I am certain that certain farmers or market gardeners, at the helm of a heavy clay or hydromorphic soil, were able to find the martingale and make an initial defect a major asset in water management in particular.
I saw it mentioned in a youtube video, unfortunately no details on the method used.


There is no martingale. And it doesn't happen like that (store excess water)!

At the end of winter, normally, if it is hydromorphic, your soil is "too full" of water. No need to want to store more.

The macro-porosities are already filled with water, while air is needed.

Your soil retention capacity is very full. Stoker more would be engorged.

However, the soil, its organisms, plants, their roots need the air contained in macro-porosity !!!

It is therefore necessary to drain the excess water. See above, the ridges.

Your clay soil naturally has a phenomenal "RU" (useful reserve). This is one of the properties of clays! Has a capacity to "usefully" store 2 mm of rain per cm of soil. By "useful", we only count what is stored after wiping (so without excess water) and until the point of wilting (when the plants can no longer draw water, too strongly retained, well. there are some left!)

If it had to be increased, it would be via organic matter and humic substances. They are "sponges". But in addition to the fact that they increase the UK, they "lighten" the soil by structuring it and they facilitate the drainage of surpluses! This is the only "reasonable" way. So contributions of organic matter on the surface. And more particularly BRF, capable of giving a lot of humic substances.

What you need is to give plants the ability to extract this water. So promote the activity of fungi and mycorrhizae, which will multiply by a factor of 100 the plants' ability to explore the soil! And we went back to the BRF, woody substances ... So mushrooms ...

Your soil really needs an incredible amount of organic matter! The rest is the wrong diagnosis.
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by ilguimat » 20/07/17, 12:39

chatelot16 wrote:there is no phosphorus only in the bones ... it is necessary that there is also in the plants ... otherwise how our bones could be formed


Unless I'm mistaken, it seems to me that most of the agricultural phosphorus comes from phosphate deposits in North Africa (Morocco); deposits that are depleting visibly.
Obviously there is no question of transforming a compost into a delicatessen annex. But bone phosphorus is, I think, a richness for the soil that should not be overlooked.
Indeed the problem is the method used to extract this phosphorus usefully. Didier is right, it must be finely ground, and if possible spread on a soil rich in mushrooms. I saw a video of Americans living in autarky in Alaska: they hunted their meat of course, but what was fascinating was that they had developed methods to make profitable each atom of the killed animal. The hooves are transformed into edible gelatin. All the bones are burned, which makes them brittle, and reduced to powder to make a phosphate fertilizer into iron.
We must also see this experience - and here I agree with Didier on the enormous importance of fungi in "phosphogenesis" - carried out by the Soviets, and reported by Hervé Coves (see also from him "holistic management of slugs" to share with the family !)
http://www.permafutur.fr/le-cycle-du-ph ... re-durable
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by ilguimat » 20/07/17, 12:56

Yes Didier I understood all this well, the purpose of the martingale that I mentioned would be to divert the water stocks during their constitution phase (mainly winter). When I speak of storing water, it is not in the soil - close to saturation -, but obviously "above ground", namely in plants, and more particularly a non-freezing green manure therefore active throughout. winter which would absorb the excess water in its material (there are also perhaps hydrophilic EVs), would also allow, by its non-opaque cover to let the earth breathe, and on the other hand would also and above all make a real nitrogen supply work.
In addition, with its destruction, besides nitrogen, water ... etc it would contribute to densify the organic matter, the humus, and therefore the virtuous effects "of sponge" which it brings and of which you speak.
But of course, all this remains quite theoretical. One of the major axes I think it is indeed the constitution of a good layer of organic matter, accompanied, to pass the water peaks, by drainage via "ridges" or other techniques.
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Re: Lazy vegetable garden in Haute-Saône




by Did67 » 20/07/17, 13:39

The system exists: it's called ponds. You are no less dombes, where this ancestral system allows at the same time, by ridging and surface drainage of the excess water towards the ponds, to better cultivate the "high points", while enhancing the low points (ponds and carp) ...

On the scale of a vegetable garden, a pond becomes a pond, which has lots of useful ecological functions ... With my slopes, I don't have any, but it is indeed a "lack"!
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