From conviction to approaching reality ...

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
lazzaret
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From conviction to approaching reality ...




by lazzaret » 01/09/17, 18:53

a knowingly provocative title, I agree! : Lol: and assume it.

I just put two little links and I let you make your opinion, even lynch me later in public.

https://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/nature-environnement/memoire-du-stress-chez-les-plantes_5832
https://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/nature-environnement/memoire-immunitaire-generationnelle-chez-les-plantes_7346
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Re: from conviction to approaching reality ...




by izentrop » 02/09/17, 01:06

Hello,
Why are you having lunch? very interesting topic : Lol:
The study of epigenetics in plants has been of paramount importance for the understanding of non-Mendelian genetic processes. Among others, work carried out on the model plant Arabidopsis thaliana has made it possible to identify more than 130 epigenetic regulators involved in the gene silencing of most eukaryotes, including humans. The diversity of epigenetic pathways in plants is remarkable: all the main epigenetic mechanisms known in eukaryotes are used by plants1.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89pig ... es_plantes
Epigenetics corresponds to the field focusing on modifications that are not in DNA, it allows to regulate the interpretation of genes (example: influence the size of the fruit, its color, its weight, its nutritional quality). They can also characterize genes and their functions a lot, such as "the acceleration of the apple tree, the resistance of the apple tree or its color," explains Étienne Bucher. http://www.my-angers.info/06/08/a-anger ... omme/64485
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Christophe » 04/09/17, 15:38

lazzaret wrote:a knowingly provocative title, I agree! : Lol: and assume it.

I just put two little links and I let you make your opinion, even lynch me later in public.

(...)


I don't quite understand either ...

Do you agree with these 2 articles or not? (me rather enough ... we debated a huge debate on genetics, evolution here: Science-and-Technology / L-evolution-of-cash-biological-and-the-chance-t11282.html )
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lazzaret
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by lazzaret » 04/09/17, 16:28

Christophe wrote:
lazzaret wrote:a knowingly provocative title, I agree! : Lol: and assume it.

I just put two little links and I let you make your opinion, even lynch me later in public.

(...)


I don't quite understand either ...

Do you agree with these 2 articles or not? (me rather enough ... we debated a huge debate on genetics, evolution here: Science-and-Technology / L-evolution-of-cash-biological-and-the-chance-t11282.html )


I defended the idea that the pressure of the environment leads to the adaptation of organisms while others defended the idea that it is chance that produces adaptations and that the environment then selects them. These links to illustrate what I thought. For me, the debate is closed.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Christophe » 04/09/17, 16:42

Ok so you tend to agree with these 2 articles : Cheesy:
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Grelinette » 04/09/17, 17:51

Hello,

This study on plants is not surprising, and in addition it goes in the direction of a report broadcast last week on ARTE who talked about this subject in humans.

According to some researchers, it turns out that our genetic heritage can change under the effect of a very strong emotion, stress, trauma, etc., and therefore be transmitted to descendants.

To put it simply, the report on ARTE spoke of the case of a young girl who had developed pathological anxieties linked to sexual assaults when nothing could prove these assaults. However, the mother of this young girl had been the victim of sexual assault ...

The researchers therefore hypothesized that this memory of stress had been transmitted by the mother, and research on genes has shown (in mice) that stress modifies certain genes which influence the behavior of descendants.

There is a lot of research on this subject, in humans, which could explain why we all have anxieties, unexplained phobias, even memories of events that we have not experienced (eg a war): all this could therefore come from the ancestors who would have experienced sufficiently traumatic situations for their genetic heritage to be modified and transmitted to children.

Like what, we can inherit a lot of things from our parents! and probably good as well as bad ...
"dogs do not make cats", it is well known! : Cheesy:
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by olivier75 » 04/09/17, 18:46

Grelinette,
Studies on humans are distorted by the social bond, even if it is not said, transmission and learning being strongly linked to the behavior, even (especially?) Of an infant, and the consequences in adulthood are controversial.
Lazzaret,
These articles are very far from proving the exclusivity of voluntary modifications, hazardous transmissions are also proven many times, it remains simply to define the relative proportions according to the species. Francis Hallé of the raft of the summits thinks that important modifications can be done in a few generations, and the daily extinctions of animal and vegetable species demonstrate the difficulty of evolution, directly linked to the lifespan of the species.

Olivier.
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by Did67 » 04/09/17, 19:06

lazzaret wrote:
I defended the idea that the pressure of the environment leads to the adaptation of organisms while others defended the idea that it is chance that produces adaptations and that the environment then selects them. These links to illustrate what I thought. For me, the debate is closed.


1) Clearly I need to revise my classics. I am one of those "others who defended the idea ...". I must admit, which I did not do, that a plant under stress transmits the information, without it being by heredity, to the offspring, with an effect up to two generations ... If this info isn't questioned - a post doesn't mean it's irrefutable. Numerous results, the biases of which appeared later, have been published. But science is advancing. And it is happy.

Sometimes, general skepticism (I speak of mine) leads to a priori rejecting what will be proven afterwards. From my point of view, this is no more silly than believing the tricks that will be invalidated.

It is even for me, a precautionary principle ... But we are there in philosophy. Not science.

2) I was suspicious, but wrongly: Science et Avenir is sometimes a bit "people" in its titles, and the way they translate a research fact. There it looks factual. I'm not giving them a trial of intent.

3) I don't have much time right now, due to other obligations. Rather than writing nonsense, I will stay a little more distant.

4) However, the way you translate this info above may not be completely accurate: it is indeed a question of "mixing" existing genes, to create more solutions; but it is also clearly stated that it did not modify the genes; well, that it lasted two generations ... Therefore, when you write "the environment selects them", I think, without looking for controversy, that you go a little far ... A little faster than the orchestra.

5) It also remains to confirm the generalization of these mechanisms, in particular on cultivated plants / "pure varieties" [obviously, a more rapid "mixing" of genes is mentioned; a kind of "accelerated recombination"; does this still exist when the possibilities of recombination are more limited following selection ????]
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by chatelot16 » 04/09/17, 22:07

I always had a big doubt on the idea that the genetic modification would be due to chance and that it is the natural selection which lets live only the modifications which are effective

it would not be stupid to think that a constraint undergone by an animal or a plant favors modifications transmitted to the descendants, much more effectively than random modifications selected then
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Re: From conviction to approaching reality ...




by lazzaret » 04/09/17, 23:38

in itself, an experience only sheds light on the limits of this experience, I hear it. And as Didier reminds me, I hypothesized that environmental pressure could give direction to selection by asking me if and when what was acquired could become innate (i.e. be chromosomally integrated into coding DNA). Epigenetic phenomena are not necessarily acquired over time but that does not mean either (limit of this experience, and maybe it will be proven later ...) that they remain reversible or that they will not be not integrated into the genome of the individual.
which made me say that the environment plays a role as we admit for chance; it is the fact that plants have, in my opinion, a complex communication system and I did not see the use of it if it were to respond quickly to constraints.
to that I do not oppose the mutation and the sexual reproduction, for me, it is synergistic.

I have well in spite of myself, returned my opinion ...
thank you all for sharing on the subject, in agreement or not.
if the subject were to remain open, I would like those who are interested to give me their opinion on Lucien Daniel and his experiences in particular on the transplant of certain vegetable vegetables and their potentials. What he implies seems to me quite prodigious (see Burbank for America and Mitchourine for Russia).
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