A vegetable meadow?

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Did67
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Did67 » 30/10/18, 10:16

I will therefore make a short summary on "manure" (I say them, because it varies a lot between fresh manure and very decomposed manure, with all the possible intermediaries)! I am finally finishing a video filmed on August 29.

And good news, it's raining. Finally 7,5 mm so far. It's not the flood!
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Moindreffor » 30/10/18, 11:20

to be chafoin wrote:I have plenty of it right next door. Studs, stables ... all the time. Manure at will because indeed they are overflowed (I have already seen a special truck with crane that comes to remove it). I took 2 or 3 years ago to fertilize a few boards in the garden, when I had the opportunity to borrow a trailer for example. I stopped mainly because I find the manipulation tedious for the means that I have. But now I think that manure poses several problems:

1) : Arrow: it's heavy, it stinks a little and it's not always good quality (it depends on the dry matter that is mixed with the dung and their proportion: if there are a lot of wood chips there may be to be chances that this is a zero sum job)
2) : Arrow: mushrooms: the excess of phosphorus is harmful to them and the manure contains a lot of this element
3) : Arrow: there is the problem of antibiotic treatment of horses (perhaps negligible, no or little effects on the soil, plants? to see according to the types of stables: race horses, leisure ...?)
4) : Arrow: the horses are fed with fodder which itself is certainly fattened in conventional. This is ultimately to fertilize your garden from mineral fertilizers!
5) : Arrow: if it is ripe manure, we find the same remarks as for the use of compost: pollution (especially CO2, which would prefer to leave the manure for the methanizers?) and substance not nutritious for the organizations laborers of the ground.

It is therefore necessary here, in my opinion, to inquire with the stables to know what is their mode of operation to know in particular how they feed their horses and manage their breeding. I have decided to practice plant fertilization whose benefits well explained by Didier arrange me well. Nevertheless, I do not really have a definite opinion. For Laurent Welsh, animal fertilization is the second pillar for the creation and maintenance of humus. For him, as for the compost, he associates this with the essential role of the ferment, to distil so with art in order to invigorate the processes of the soil and the organic life.

1) yes it's heavy and it could, ok for the composition Didier will enlighten us
2) excess, excess is still not a mine of phosphorus and the kitchen gardens are not siped either
3) litter mostly horses is changed often, and a horse is not normally continuously under treatment so the doses should be minimal
4) you especially fertile your garden with a waste that if you do not use it will end up in a pile and rot on the spot and all the energy that is inside will go in CO2 and all that will mineralize will be washed away by the ground, so here I will say that you "save" a part of it
5) methanizers as if there were any street corners, individuals who own 1 or 2 horses will not wear it in a methanizer they will just find an agreement with a farmer to have a corner where let it rot

I think you are on this one a bit pessimistic and extremist, get some of this manure is just out a part that will become useful at home, instead of being lost in a corner where it will pollute more than something else
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 30/10/18, 14:23

I found the discussion on the subject (1088 page). This is Didier's observation on P and myc:
Page 91 of their book [Fortin, ...] (which suddenly I recommend, without advertising!) There is a table which gives for 9 market garden or agricultural species, the "mycorrhizal dependence of plants" = the part of P which is supplied by mycorrhizae at a content of 100 ppm P in the soil. We see that in wheat, at this content, it is "independent". But at 50 ppm, it receives 30% of its P from mycorrhizae. The leek, at 100 ppm of P, receives 95,7% of the mycorrhizae. At 50 ppm, it is 97%. But at 150 ppm, that dropped to 50. Several vegetables are in close orders of magnitude: carrots, peas, beans, beans, sweet corn. Tomato and potato are less dependent [40 to 60% at 100 ppm; slightly more at 50 ppm - 60/65%] and become "independent" at 150 ppm [0% P of mycorrhizal origin]. The comment says this was obtained "from a field experiment".
[...] There is clearly, for vegetables, a threshold, between 100 and 150 ppm of P in the soil, from which the benefit of mycorrhizae decreases or collapses. On this basis, I recommend not to fertilize, at the risk of making the plant "independent" - since it easily finds what it needs - from mycorrhizal fungi.
See also fragments in the following 1089,1090 pages, where I bounced with Lowenfels' warning about P and manure. I reported for example that the latter evoked that some research mentioned rather rates of 30ppm instead of 100ppm Didier. I always quote Didier:
a) the fresh manure is not rich in P; it is even, for an "organic amendment", rather poor ... (the straw being poor); let's say "very average" [3,5 units of P / tonne with enormous variability according to the nature of the feed, according to the animal species, etc ...]
b) it is true that once the manure decomposed, the C having gone away, the minerals are concentrated; the P is not leached (or little) in the heap, so the content, relative to the gross tonne of manure, increases, where some of the nitrogen escapes as a gas and a part of the K is leached if the pile is not under a roof (which is rarely the case) ... [But there is not more than before; he's just more focused in less material!]
[...]
A contribution of 40 gross tons / ha every 3 years [an average dose, today very little practiced! This is the equivalent of 4 kg / m² in the kitchen garden, ie 400 kg on 100 m²] brings about 350 units of P. It is indeed, quite significant and corresponds to the needs of 3 cultures that will succeed each other ..
A calculation follows to assess what these 4kg / m2 "mixed" with 30 cm of soil give which already contains phosphorus and to derive a same vague threshold (p1091-1092). I have kept only the passages relating to the subject. End of calculation:
So 15 000 mg of P / 400 kg of soil = 35 mg of P / kg of soil.
The "limits" in biology are never square. These are "bell" curves ... It is not at 79 mg no effect, at 80 mg a maximum effect. I think that at 35, we start to have an effect ...
Especially if we now consider only 15 cm of soil (what we dig), if we consider that the mycorrhization is established at the start; if we consider that a market gardener easily provides 2 or 3 or 4 times the doses of a farmer (look at a field after passing a manure spreader, there are a few "pieces" of manure here and there; nothing to do with the "continuous layers of manure)" used by a market gardener, we see that we can quickly reach the limit ...
So with a lot of reserves (the calculations are to be verified) 4kg fresh manure m2 could mark a beginning of negative effect on some mycorhizations.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Moindreffor » 30/10/18, 19:40

to be chafoin wrote:I found the discussion on the subject (1088 page). This is Didier's observation on P and myc:
Page 91 of their book [Fortin, ...] (which suddenly I recommend, without advertising!) There is a table which gives for 9 market garden or agricultural species, the "mycorrhizal dependence of plants" = the part of P which is supplied by mycorrhizae at a content of 100 ppm P in the soil. We see that in wheat, at this content, it is "independent". But at 50 ppm, it receives 30% of its P from mycorrhizae. The leek, at 100 ppm of P, receives 95,7% of the mycorrhizae. At 50 ppm, it is 97%. But at 150 ppm, that dropped to 50. Several vegetables are in close orders of magnitude: carrots, peas, beans, beans, sweet corn. Tomato and potato are less dependent [40 to 60% at 100 ppm; slightly more at 50 ppm - 60/65%] and become "independent" at 150 ppm [0% P of mycorrhizal origin]. The comment says this was obtained "from a field experiment".
[...] There is clearly, for vegetables, a threshold, between 100 and 150 ppm of P in the soil, from which the benefit of mycorrhizae decreases or collapses. On this basis, I recommend not to fertilize, at the risk of making the plant "independent" - since it easily finds what it needs - from mycorrhizal fungi.
See also fragments in the following 1089,1090 pages, where I bounced with Lowenfels' warning about P and manure. I reported for example that the latter evoked that some research mentioned rather rates of 30ppm instead of 100ppm Didier. I always quote Didier:
a) the fresh manure is not rich in P; it is even, for an "organic amendment", rather poor ... (the straw being poor); let's say "very average" [3,5 units of P / tonne with enormous variability according to the nature of the feed, according to the animal species, etc ...]
b) it is true that once the manure decomposed, the C having gone away, the minerals are concentrated; the P is not leached (or little) in the heap, so the content, relative to the gross tonne of manure, increases, where some of the nitrogen escapes as a gas and a part of the K is leached if the pile is not under a roof (which is rarely the case) ... [But there is not more than before; he's just more focused in less material!]
[...]
A contribution of 40 gross tons / ha every 3 years [an average dose, today very little practiced! This is the equivalent of 4 kg / m² in the kitchen garden, ie 400 kg on 100 m²] brings about 350 units of P. It is indeed, quite significant and corresponds to the needs of 3 cultures that will succeed each other ..
A calculation follows to assess what these 4kg / m2 "mixed" with 30 cm of soil give which already contains phosphorus and to derive a same vague threshold (p1091-1092). I have kept only the passages relating to the subject. End of calculation:
So 15 000 mg of P / 400 kg of soil = 35 mg of P / kg of soil.
The "limits" in biology are never square. These are "bell" curves ... It is not at 79 mg no effect, at 80 mg a maximum effect. I think that at 35, we start to have an effect ...
Especially if we now consider only 15 cm of soil (what we dig), if we consider that the mycorrhization is established at the start; if we consider that a market gardener easily provides 2 or 3 or 4 times the doses of a farmer (look at a field after passing a manure spreader, there are a few "pieces" of manure here and there; nothing to do with the "continuous layers of manure)" used by a market gardener, we see that we can quickly reach the limit ...
So with a lot of reserves (the calculations are to be verified) 4kg fresh manure m2 could mark a beginning of negative effect on some mycorhizations.

I think Didier must talk about dry mass, because talk of fresh manure and wet, it does not make much sense because 4 kg of manure it must be more than 3 kg of fleet more if it is very strawy what is often the case for horse manure because they need very clean boxes, so I have no fears
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 30/10/18, 21:32

Yes I do not remember maybe he was talking about ripe manure rather ... In any case it was about the rather high dose of manure spread "normally" by farmers.
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Moindreffor » 31/10/18, 08:10

to be chafoin wrote:Yes I do not remember maybe he was talking about ripe manure rather ... In any case it was about the rather high dose of manure spread "normally" by farmers.

4kg at the m2 per hectare it's kind of 40t it must make cows : Mrgreen:
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 19/12/18, 21:59

Most of my autumn seedlings have been unsuccessful but recently a few lines of peas are trying to break through 3 weeks at least after sowing. Suddenly question on the duration of germination displayed (which was here from 10 to 15 days): what is it? How long does it take for the seed to develop its first photosynthetic equipment under ideal conditions, for example in the home sprouter? After this time, we must add the time to get out of the earth?
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Moindreffor » 20/12/18, 08:40

to be chafoin wrote:Most of my autumn seedlings have been unsuccessful but recently a few lines of peas are trying to break through 3 weeks at least after sowing. Suddenly question on the duration of germination displayed (which was here from 10 to 15 days): what is it? How long does it take for the seed to develop its first photosynthetic equipment under ideal conditions, for example in the home sprouter? After this time, we must add the time to get out of the earth?

it corresponds to a duration of emergence, in good conditions, warm soil, good humidity, it is an indication, my bulbs of onions planted in the spring without too much to push them in the ground, or even surely not enough raised only after the summer, I picked up a game and I was disappointed because I missed a lot of it and then I have almost everything missing that points to the call like what, all summer in the earth dry in the hay, and with the return of the rains, the hay which degrades the onions found the good conditions and it raises and it grows, so nothing astonishing for your peas

what is to be feared for this kind of seed is that they rot in the ground or be eaten by this or that pest, but apparently not, so always keep hope

it is the non-work of my soil that has allowed my last bulbs of onions to come out, so one more positive point, the whole thing is that we will have to harvest them green because I think they will all very quickly climb to seeds unfortunately
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by to be chafoin » 27/12/18, 00:34

I am the evolution of the seedling of small peas ... which continue to point everywhere ... before being planed, probably by slugs!

I still install stakes (nets and branches) hoping that a good amount comes out. But it seems that the slobber adore the peas (and with the humidity that drags!) So that it is easy enough to find my seedlings, even sometimes lost in the middle of various greenery that repel here and there: these are the only small seedlings that are nibbled!

Remember the pea for spring "martyr seedlings" to protect other crops?
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Re: A vegetable meadow?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 27/12/18, 01:46

Since all that was not protected in the greenhouse was eaten with 0 salads this winter against a perfect regularity last year we tested (except the bottles that are good but not super practical, I speak well of practical and not effective) green cups ...

At this moment 100% of success, all shoots are in place.

While slugs even go to eat seedlings in pots on crates or even in kitchen gardens.

To follow but suddenly I will order again.
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