How to find a land

Agriculture and soil. Pollution control, soil remediation, humus and new agricultural techniques.
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Did67
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Re: How to find a land




by Did67 » 09/03/18, 09:11

Antoche wrote:What do you think of the ground - living market gardening that was mentioned? It would be said that these market gardeners live by their trade.


It's a very good source of inspiration - not only do they make a living from their profession, but by practicing arguably the most life-friendly commercial gardening that I know (apart from maybe a few German models, even more professional and more "mechanized").
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chatelot16
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Re: How to find a land




by chatelot16 » 09/03/18, 10:30

I'm not talking about facebook but a real sales site where you can see exactly what is available, order and pay by credit card

even if we do not have delivery we can order and pay by card to be sure that it is available when we come to pick it up ... and to avoid that anyone books without picking it up
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Re: How to find a land




by olivier75 » 09/03/18, 10:47

Hello,
If I had to settle down, I would turn to msv, they have in my opinion a very tolerant approach to the practices of their colleagues and together seek solutions for each. Far from the French dogmas which JM Fortier gently laughs at. I find this sharing between “competitors” quite rare and beneficial. It may also be proof that there is still room.
That said, I only know them from the videos,
But who has already broadcast a free 7 hour conference on earthworms?
Olivier
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Antoche
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Re: How to find a land




by Antoche » 09/03/18, 11:40

Thank you for your answers.

The difference between gardener and market gardener was mentioned.
1) But do you think it is possible to become a lazy market gardener? I am sure there must be a very high degree of market gardening for laziness. (which will always be lower than lazy gardening of course)

2) My ideas of:
a) does not growing rustic / perennial / perpetual plants (old vegetables) tend in this direction?
b) similarly, save water by moving to a place with good rainfall in summer and sufficient heat? (growing season)
(example: around Bayonne https://fr.climate-data.org/location/60170/ ; from Besançon https://fr.climate-data.org/location/348/ ; around Geneva https://fr.climate-data.org/location/839/ (but staying in France)

The following 3 questions are more or less the same, written in different forms, in order to convey my thoughts to you:
3)
What are the possible things that a living soil grower can import from a lazy gardener?
What can a market gardener integrate within the limits of the possible in lazy gardening?
What can a living soil farmer learn from a lazy gardener?
What are the limits of phenocultural integration in market gardening?

4) Can you tell us a bit more about the specificity of the installation projects of the people you support? This could prove to be a source of inspiration.
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: How to find a land




by sicetaitsimple » 09/03/18, 13:13

Wanting, even in a dream, to associate the words "market gardener" and "lazy" seems to me just a serious error, whatever the techniques used.

As for vegetables, I suggest you go for a walk on the markets in summer and observe fruit and vegetable stands to see what sells vegetables. What people want are beans, peas, green beans picked the day before, young onions or young carrots, crunchy salads, crunchy radishes, tasty tomatoes, etc etc ... No rutabagas.

Sorry for being a little "crude" in my answer, but I think the "customer" aspect, even though you highlighted it in a recent post, is still largely underestimated. Even AMAP customers crave and won't live on rutabagas and rhubarb.
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Re: How to find a land




by Did67 » 09/03/18, 13:54

sicetaitsimple wrote:Even AMAP customers have cravings and will not live on rutabagas and rhubarb.


This is one of the major causes of the model's breathlessness, which, after a "moment" of buzz, vegetates ...

Today, it is the "beehives" that are on the rise: it is the customer who orders what he wants, and finds his product in a distribution place ...

I totally agree if it was simple on this issue. There are good ideas, apparently, which, beyond the buzz, are stillborn ...
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Re: How to find a land




by Did67 » 09/03/18, 14:10

Antoche wrote:
The difference between gardener and market gardener was mentioned.
1) But do you think it is possible to become a lazy market gardener? I am sure there must be a very high degree of market gardening for laziness. (which will always be lower than lazy gardening of course)



I will, in response to this question, qualify the point of sicétésimple:

- it is possible to make "lazily" (without any tillage, without fertilization, without making / undoing the covers) seasonal vegetables or more exactly vegetables conservation : typically, onions / garlic / shallots, celery, leeks, a large part of cabbages, turnips, cucurbitaceae, etc. winter lettuce ...) ...

- for those who are going to eat in autumn or during winter, it does not matter to be a little late! And it's already a significant part of the production! Any effort gained on this is won!

AND so I think a viable project combines two things:

a) areas left bare at the start of the season, for example one year in 3, possibly covered with black plastic (to be discussed), for early productions = fresh vegetables expected by the customer at the end of winter; first salads, radishes, peas, first beans,

b) zones in phenocultures, where one plants or sows these same cultures "with the least effort", to produce in second step

c) areas in phenocultures for conservation vegetables ...

After two years of full coverage (b and c), weed emergence is limited; the soil aggravated and fertile; the rate of organic matter on the rise ... We can therefore "hurt" a little - less than in conventional organic however! - by a culture "bare", with progressive grassing - but who cares because it will enter the cycle b and c ...

We can, in a), accelerate further with greenhouses and tunnels ...

Finally, for those who would like to grow, there are now farms in Germany of 20 or 30 ha practicing a kind of "mechanized phenoculture": these are "vegan" farms, which no longer breed; the "hay" is collected and distributed mechanically, in bands, on market garden areas (by self-loading trailers then spreaders such as manure); there are machines for planting in this "mulch" (Baertschi's Murocut, which I have mentioned elsewhere) ...

So I think that thinking a little, and with a few tries, it is quite possible to do "professional phenoculture". And there, I diverge slightly from those which, as sicaitsimple, are, in my opinion too much influenced by Fortier (which I still have not read - so I remain cautious; but if I understand correctly, we remain there in the paradigm where "it's up to man to take care of fertility").

I admit that the intensification in terms of work (producing more while working less) requires an extensification of surfaces (it is necessary, for the same tonnage, a larger surface, because one takes less care of the "interlocking" of the cultures one in the others, even if, compared to what I do, progress is possible).
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sicetaitsimple
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Re: How to find a land




by sicetaitsimple » 09/03/18, 14:48

Did67 wrote:I will, in response to this question, qualify the point of sicétésimple:


You do well to qualify, I myself qualified my comment as "crude foundry"!

Nevertheless, with a view to market gardening on living soil but also to a "market gardener living from his work":

- the conservation vegetables of course it will always have to be done but in my opinion it should not bring much
- As for "We can, in a), still accelerate with greenhouses and tunnels", I think it is imperative whatever the technique used. Do you think it is viable to do commercial gardening without having at least 300/400 m2 of greenhouse?
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Re: How to find a land




by Did67 » 09/03/18, 15:32

There are forms of market gardening with very specialized productions: only bulbs (onions, shallots), etc ... Or only a few medicinal flowers that are dried and stored ...

But indeed, the dominant model is linked to "as continuous as possible" productions, with direct sales / on the markets, which supposes building customer loyalty, and therefore permanently having attractive vegetables ...
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Re: How to find a land




by olivier75 » 09/03/18, 17:30

Hi,
To live fairly well, a market gardener must necessarily cultivate the lazy side, at 1 euro the salad, sale included, how many minutes can he devote to it?
Except that between selective weedkiller and unrolling hay, there is a choice of life.
In msv's farm visits, those who can recover it put hay.
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