The pros and cons of electric cars

[delnoram]

My poor "lejustemilieu" these gremlins they rot all the subjects

[the middle]

wow, how ugly !!!!

[Elec]

Obtaining lithium carbonate from brine (salt lake containing lithium chloride, etc.):

- a first lime treatment (lime is obtained by burning limestone, a very abundant rock) makes it possible to remove the magnesium from the brine.

- A treatment with sodium hydroxide (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, is obtained by electrolysis of sodium chloride, table salt, NaCl; NaCl obtained for example in salt marshes) allows lithium carbonate to be obtained by precipitation.

To obtain lithium carbonate you therefore need limestone (very abundant), sodium chloride (very abundant) and electricity (which can be produced with renewable energies whose potential is enormous).

It is said that the future of batteries is lithium, but there are few in nature

Lithium is the 23rd most abundant element on earth. Lithium carbonate (mainly produced today in salt deserts) now costs $ 8 per kg. It is only 2% of the cost of a lithium battery. Lithium carbonate obtained by the seawater sector costs today (2007) around 80 dollars, ie 10 times more than with the "salt desert sector" (continental brine). This means that switching from lithium carbonate from salt deserts to lithium carbonate from the seawater sector has only a moderate impact on the cost of a battery: a battery that cost $ 7000 then goes to 8400. dollars. The world's reserves of lithium in seawater have the potential to equip 18000 billion Tesla Roadster type electric cars. And even without considering the lithium in seawater, terrestrial resources (evaporites from salt lakes, geothermal evaporites, pegmatites, hectorite etc.) are largely sufficient. World reserves of lithium carbonate (Li2CO3), apart from lithium in seawater, are estimated at between 58 and 150 billion kilograms. The lithium carbonate mass percentage of a Lithium ion battery is 8% (a 200kg battery contains approximately 16kg of lithium carbonate) ... And the Lithium is 98% recyclable! As we can see, the lithium shortage is not for tomorrow. The only threat to lithium batteries is the emergence of cheaper and even more efficient lithium-free batteries !. References here

[I Citro]

Whaoo. another topic on the electric car that goes live.
Thank you elec for the link to electron-economy.org or earth goal ??
Regarding the Syrota report and many of the arguments against the electric car, they demonstrate the general autism and passion that surrounds this mode of transport.
Experts in foresight are incapable of projecting this into the future and especially of imagining alternatives ... This is normal, because it is impossible. Simply because, if there is no political will, things will not move forward.
Today, many see, in the light of the crisis, clarifying alternative solutions. It's true, but everyone believes they have THE solution when there is not a solution, but a multitude.
Finally, even "irrational" solutions will have reasons to emerge ...
It is said that the electric car has the best performance, it is true but to further optimize it, it should be lightened and dimensioned (weight, size, volume, aerodynamics, autonomy ... depending on the use that we do. It is absurd to have 200km of autonomy (and to train the batteries for) if you only travel 50km / day.

All specialists who decree (in the name of what ???) that the electric car is an urban car, should think before writing it ... and consult the users.
I had fun last week using public transport to go to work:
I had to take the first tram at 6 am (it is 15 minutes on foot from the house) to arrive at work at 15 am (tram 8 minutes from my job).
Or 2 hours from door to door.
By bike, I put 1H00 (without softening) to 1H15 (17km)
In scoot'elec, I put 40 minutes (17km)
By car via the ring road at 90 km / h, from 20 minutes to 1 hour depending on traffic (very random) for 00 km and no red lights.

My wish, for the future, to manage to make this commuting trip in assisted velomobile, in my opinion, the most efficient vehicle to move away from the weather.: Idea:

I read above the arguments (already heard) against the performance of walking and cycling. I allow myself to sweep them with the back of my hand. I honestly think I'm over-consuming the food I eat and clogging my arteries. It seems obvious to me that 2 times 1 hour of pedaling daily will not make me consume much more food but will make me use it better for the greatest benefit of my organism ...

[Elec]

It is absurd to have 200km of autonomy (and to train the batteries for) if you only travel 50km / day.

I agree.
To be completely personal, I think that a battery with a range of 60km is sufficient. With, for example, the option of renting a second battery for longer trips outside the network of charging stations (holidays, etc.).

[Christophe]

A new synthetic article on the Electric Car: http://www.challenges.fr/magazine/1/018 ... rique.html

The truths about ... the handicaps of the electric car

It would be too polluting, too greedy, too expensive ... Does the electric car have a future? The five key points of the debate.

What if the electric car pollutes as much as the petrol car?

A priori, a car that has no exhaust and emits no gas is necessarily ecological! Not that easy. "It does have an exhaust pipe," says Céline Mesquida, transport manager for France Nature Environment. That of the power plant. ”In fact, since power has to be produced, the electric car pollutes, like a power plant. The current must then be transported then stored in a battery, which generates losses, and therefore additional pollution. Thus, according to Ademe (Environment and Energy Management Agency), the electric car requires 62% more energy than a thermal car for the same efficiency. The result, says Agir pour l'Environnement, "the electric vehicle says" zero emissions "is a sight of the mind. It can be credited with benefits like reducing noise or harmful emissions in an urban environment, but suggesting that these vehicles would be climate neutral and the ultimate technological solution is intellectual dishonesty. ” Should we bury the electric car in the cemetery of false good ideas? No. Because the question of the ecological balance is more complex than it seems. Several parameters must be taken into account: origin of electricity, way of recharging the vehicle, type of battery used ... Here are the five key points.

Electric or petrol, it's the same CO2 emission

FALSE From well to wheel, as the experts say, what is the carbon footprint of the electric car?
It is the origin of the electricity that determines the volume of C02 emissions. If it comes from a hydraulic dam or a wind turbine, nothing to say. But if it comes from coal, it's another matter! "In China, the electric car is a coal car," says Patrick Coroller, head of the transport and mobility department at Ademe. It pollutes more than diesel! ”In Europe and the United States, the situation is different: coal-fired power plants are part of the energy mix but they are not in the majority, so the CO2 balance is undoubtedly positive. WWF recognizes, for example, that "in Europe and the United States electric vehicles emit significantly less CO2 than conventional vehicles". Same story with Greenpeace international: "To reduce CO2 emissions in transport, electric vehicles are the best way." These words differ significantly from those of the French organizations mentioned above. The reason ? In France, electricity does not emit CO2 but it is mainly nuclear (see graph opposite). Hence the reluctance of environmental organizations to support the electric vehicle. However, the results are clear: “With us, an electric vehicle emits ten times less CO2 than a petrol car,” concludes Patrick Coroller.

No agreement for the USA (majority in coal) like Germany. So to qualify with these figures: Car-electric-emission-de-co2-and-country-by-p-Langlois-t7716.html


Batteries can be recharged at any time

FALSE "If everyone recharges at 19 p.m. when they get home, at a time of extreme electricity consumption, this is a catastrophic scenario for CO2," insists Yannick Vicaire, of Agir pour the environment.

The explanation from Patrick Coroller, from Ademe: “If we charge during depicted hours, electricity suppliers must call on coal or gas power plants.” The solution would be to have “a price system which incites to charge during off-peak hours, overnight. ” But who will charge between midnight and 7 a.m. "All you need is computerized load management," continues Patrick Coroller. You go home, you plug in your car and the computer powers you when we go during off-peak hours. ”Assuming that vehicles would be systematically recharged during peak hours is the best argument against the electric car! His supporters, they put forward the figures of French, Swedish and Swiss studies where electricity is decarbonized (hydraulic, nuclear).

Batteries are very polluting

TRUE The manufacture of batteries generates significant pollution. Especially since they have a fairly short lifespan and must be changed several times during the life of a car. "The CO2 emissions linked to the manufacture of a thermal vehicle represent roughly 15% of the emissions from the use of the vehicle during its entire lifespan, that is to say C02 which leaves the exhaust pipe "Says Philippe Pinchon, director of energy engines at the French Petroleum Institute.

This pollution doubles in the case of electric vehicles, if one takes into account the batteries to be changed regularly. We must add the losses due to the battery itself. Who was not annoyed to see that his mobile phone, which remained on for a week at the time of purchase, does not last more than a few hours a year later! “Yes, recognizes Jérôme Perrin, director of advanced CO2 and environment projects at Renault. But they are not the same. There is no such “memory” effect that we encounter with the mobile phone. We know how to draw 80% of the capacity of a car battery and we continue to progress. ”

Anything this Renault clampin ... the memory effect is a legend in our use (it is the "natural" wear of the battery that we assimilate to the memory effect) and there are has very little on Li-Ion used in mobile. The technologies used in EV and mobile are almost the same it's just the scale that changes ...

There is not enough current for a 100% electric park

FALSE Already, it is illusory to believe that the French fleet will convert to all-electric with a magic wand! At best, according to a study by Ademe, France can expect 1 million electric vehicles by 2020, or around 3% of the car fleet. As for the electric capacity, it would be largely sufficient: that which will be available on this date will power 4 million vehicles recharging between midnight and 7 am, the study says. In addition, if Europe keeps its objectives of lower consumption and use of electricity from renewable sources, it should theoretically have sufficient power and less carbon than today.

The electric car is too expensive

TRUE No need to hide your face: it costs almost twice the price of a thermal car. Main reason: the battery strikes the budget! “It costs 12 euros, says Max Blanchet, partner at Roland Berger Strategy Consultants, specialist in the automotive industry. Hopefully the price will drop in half by 000. But the driver is catching up on maintenance and consumption. If we calculate the total price of an electric vehicle over its entire lifetime, it comes down to 2020% more than a conventional vehicle. ”Concretely, for 5 kilometers in urban use, a small car costs about 100, 10,30 euros in fuel according to Max Blanchet's calculations, against 2,03 euros in electricity. The gain is very clear provided that the user drives enough to compensate for the price of the battery. But no need to hope for miracles with a car whose range is limited to 100 kilometers per day!

And still today, there is no TIPP (domestic tax on petroleum products) on electricity. If the state applied it, the price advantage of the killowatt-hour would drop by the same amount. Result, according to Max Blanchet: the electric car is a good thing on the ecological level, but it is a niche which will represent 40000 vehicles per year at most.

Paul Loubiere

All our debates on the electric car are accessible here

[I Citro]

A new synthetic article on the Electric Car: http://www.challenges.fr/magazine/1/018 ... rique.html


All our debates on the electric car are accessible here

Thank you Christophe for the info ...

I haven't read tea towels like Challenge and Nouvel Obs for a long time ... This article confirms my point of view ...


It is also because of articles like this that I put so long before driving electric ...

[sen-no-sen]

I share the same point of view as Rulian and highflyaddict, massive individual transport is an aberration.
According to forecasts, China will have 800 million cars by 2025 (that is to say after tomorrow), which is as much as any other vehicle in the world today!
If we look at the future like this, with the growth of countries like India, Brazil (+ us of course) we can envisage several (3..4) billion vehicles !!!
After the propulsion is nuclear, uh finally electric, or petroleum or Agro fuel the problem remains the same!
It's crazy, the future is public transport and ... quadriceps.

[I Citro]

... massive individual transport is an aberration.
According to forecasts, China will have 800 million cars by 2025 (that is to say after tomorrow), which is as much as any other vehicle in the world today!
If we look at the future like this, with the growth of countries like India, Brazil (+ us of course) we can envisage several (3..4) billion vehicles !!!

We agree, especially to move 80kg of meat with 2 tonnes of scrap ... But this should not happen, other factors will come before including ... The exhaustion of raw materials to manufacture these vehicles ... The thing is still kept silent but it is rumored that many minerals including ... iron would be in shortage long before oil ...
Anyway our economic system is on the brink and should not last 10 years more ...

After the propulsion is nuclear, uh finally electric, or petroleum or Agro fuel the problem remains the same!
It's crazy, the future is public transport and ... quadriceps.

In urban areas, it is a certainty, but it will be necessary to move around and transport goods in areas not served by public transport. Electric, hybrid vehicles with muscular, solar propulsion, etc. will therefore be the best choices for these uses because of their incomparable performance provided that they are sized as accurately as possible for their use.

But the decision-makers in place are UNABLE to make the right choices and to give up their way of thinking, a revolution must take place before ...

[sen-no-sen]

Agree with you Citro, of course I am not saying that we must remove individual transport, but reason it with real measures.
A 50% reduction in the car fleet would be a good thing (less accident, pollution, stress, and a larger budget for households ...).
The problem is that the French are mostly addicted to the car.
Whether our vehicles are electric or thermal, we must not veil our faces, the solution is reduction.