electric horse-drawn tow !!!

Cars, buses, bicycles, electric airplanes: all electric transportation that exist. Conversion, engines and electric drives for transport ...
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Grelinette
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by Grelinette » 25/11/13, 23:45

dirk pitt, your comment on the difference between friction and rolling bothering me .... : Shock:

I tend to think that there is a link between the 2 and so the conversion is simple.

For example, if I take a cart with 2 inflatable rubber wheels and pull it over a given distance on an earth floor to make it roll by measuring the force with a dynamometer.
Let's say I get the F1.1 force (no matter the unit, Newton, kg.force), ...)
Then I block the wheels and do the same test. I get F1.2 (with F1.2> F1.1).

I am doing the same test with wooden wheels. I get F2.1 (freewheels) and F2.2 (locked wheels).

Am I wrong, if I say that the values ​​of F1.1, F1.2 and F2.1 allow me to calculate F2.2? (rule of 3 with taking into account the coefficient of friction).


Image
(Source: http://www.aptc.fr/cariboost_files/TRACTION.pdf)

... and for those who want to know more about the energy develop by the harnessed horses, I just found this very interesting file with traction measures:
http://www.aptc.fr/cariboost_files/Compte-rendu_2013_20nov_20mod_20hj.pdf
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by danielj » 25/01/14, 16:34

A small corrigendum in the image with the relations force, work, energy.
in the first paragraph, we read:

"1. STRENGTH
Action that allows to deform or move a body.
Unit of measure = the kilogram force or the Newton
1kg force = 9.81 N (point force needed to lift a weight
from 1 kg to 1 meter in height) "

The mention "to lift 1 meter high" is not correct, because here we introduce the notion of energy.

It should be said: "1kg force = 9.81 N (punctual force necessary to lift a weight of 1 kg."

a+
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by danielj » 25/01/14, 16:43

Grelinette: on "Am I mistaken, if I say that the values ​​of F1.1, F1.2 and F2.1 allow me to calculate F2.2? (Rule of 3 taking into account the coefficient of friction)."

I think that there is confusion between friction of the mechanical system (axles / wheels) and friction wheels locked on the ground (system locked wheels / ground).

It's not the same thing at all. The example cited in the previous doc is a good example. Frictions are measured by measuring the effort required (in newton) to pull a vehicle on a flat ground ...
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by Grelinette » 25/01/14, 19:20

thank you for the clarification danielj.

It is true that I am not a specialist in this field.
Having said that, my problem is to try to construct a theoretical table giving an idea of ​​the "force / power / energy" required to tow a load mounted on a rolling or sliding system.

Even if the parameters are theoretical and relative, it must be possible to approximate them and to establish a formula allowing to calculate a value which will confirm that it is easier, with equal mass, to tow a trolley on large thin wheels rolling on smooth concrete a sledge slipping on rough asphalt!

I come back to the calculation chart that I put online because I have a little completed, and I already had several requests to know when it would be finished. (link at the end of the comment, format xls)

In addition, at the beginning of the table I introduced the formula that was used to calculate the theoretical power of an engine (that of the hybrid carriage):
Slope = 10%, mass = 1000 kg, speed = 10 km / h (zero friction coefficient).
Maximum engine power (Pmax) = Force (Newton) x Speed ​​(m / s)
Force = Mass (kg) x Projection of the force on the slope is cos (90 ° -5.74 °) x Value of the acceleration of the gravity (g = 9.81 Newton)
Speed ​​= 10 km / h or 2,8 m / s => P.max = 1000 x Cos (84.26 °) x 9.81 x 2.8 = 2725 Watts => CV conversion (1cv = 735 w): 2747,2 / 735 = 3,71 HP


The formula seems consistent but if I put a slope of 0% (flat terrain, 0m in height for 100m traveled), the calculated theoretical power is 0 cv, which is not logical. If you have comments ...

Link to the table: http://aveniratoutcrin.free.fr/doc/Tableau_calcul_force_traction.xls
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by Forhorse » 26/01/14, 02:15

If it is logical, since you do not take into account, neither the effort to counter the friction, nor the energy necessary to pass from 0 to 10km / h
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by danielj » 28/01/14, 18:04

We must add the losses by friction (not calculated, but is easily measured.) It is necessary to measure the tensile force on the flat with a dynamometer spring or with a scale person (you push the trolley with the balance).
For example if you find 30 kgf this makes: 30 x 9.81 (to convert to newtons) = 294,3. For 10 km / h we have 2,78 m / sec, so power lost at 10 km / h by friction = 294,4 x 2,78 = 818,43 watts. This power is proportional to the speed.

Grelinette wrote:thank you for the clarification danielj.

In addition, at the beginning of the table I introduced the formula that was used to calculate the theoretical power of an engine (that of the hybrid carriage):
Slope = 10%, mass = 1000 kg, speed = 10 km / h (zero friction coefficient).
Maximum engine power (Pmax) = Force (Newton) x Speed ​​(m / s)
Force = Mass (kg) x Projection of the force on the slope is cos (90 ° -5.74 °) x Value of the acceleration of the gravity (g = 9.81 Newton)
Speed ​​= 10 km / h or 2,8 m / s => P.max = 1000 x Cos (84.26 °) x 9.81 x 2.8 = 2725 Watts => CV conversion (1cv = 735 w): 2747,2 / 735 = 3,71 HP


The formula seems consistent but if I put a slope of 0% (flat terrain, 0m in height for 100m traveled), the calculated theoretical power is 0 cv, which is not logical. If you have comments ...

Link to the table: http://aveniratoutcrin.free.fr/doc/Tableau_calcul_force_traction.xls
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by Obamot » 28/10/14, 21:37

It's been ten months since we talked about Grelinette, tell me what's new since ...?

;-)
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by Grelinette » 03/11/14, 18:07

Obamot wrote:It's been ten months since we talked about Grelinette, tell me what's new since ...?
;-)

Unfortunately not much: I block on the finalization of the excel board, lack of technical knowledge on the subject and time to do research, tests and measurements in situation. (I also started a new job that occupies a lot of my time and my mind ...), and I admit that I am more comfortable as empirical experimenter in the field than as theoretician on paper!

That said, the idea of ​​the theoretical chart is maturing and as soon as I have a little time, I will try to tackle it to finish it, even roughly, and then improve it.

If some have the motivation to re-arm the movement, it would be good too : Cheesy:
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by Grelinette » 27/02/15, 15:02

And presto, a good one I jump over 100 years back (1898)!

Read this article and you'll learn that the first Porsche was ... a electric horse-drawn carriage ! : Cheesy:

35 km / h and 80 km of autonomy, all the same! Like what, proportionally, our modern electric cars do not represent technological progress so important!

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Image
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Re: Electric horse-drawn hitch !!!




by Grelinette » 15/03/16, 18:34

Hello,

I reactivate this subject in order to develop the current prototype of the Hybrid Horse Car.
Electric horse-drawn carriage (2) .jpg
Electric horse-drawn carriage (1) .jpg

To start with, I would like to change the 4 wheel motors with flatter ones because the current ones are 10 cm thick (22 cm in diameter) which adds 20 cm in axle width, and poses certain problems (eg loading on a trailer ).

I did not find the technical specifications of the current engines but it did not matter much if I change them all.
They come from 4 E scooter . I think it was 1200 or 1300 watts.

Do you know a manufacturer of wheel motors that would have the equivalent in more compact?

I thought of the VAE kit wheel motors because now we find very powerful ones at attractive prices.

For the current prototype, assistance is triggered from a force sensor, the data of which is sent to a programmable controller.
But as with some pedelecs, a simple wheel rotation detector seems sufficient to me.

What do you think ?...
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