Electric car: physical limits and overall balance

Cars, buses, bicycles, electric airplanes: all electric transportation that exist. Conversion, engines and electric drives for transport ...
RIAZ
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Electric car: physical limits and overall balance




View RIAZ » 05/10/08, 20:15

To be or not to be electric electric, That Is not the question!
Yet it is the one we hear.

THE QUESTION IS: how to reduce energy consumption necessary to satisfy our (valuable) need individual movement, served today by our dear car?

I pass on the preliminary reduction of car use represents a significant part of the solution, to stay on the way to move except in walking, pedaling or taking a public transportation ticket.

Once this question resolved then we can be interested in propulsion, with also much more likely to find solutions that make sense. It's like a house, you first need to isolate (reducing consumption) until you know how you will heat it.

The only laws to follow are those of physics, it's simple:
1 / The need for energy to propel a vehicle increases with its mass, air resistance and the speed at which it moves. the laws of physics have it good, one is sure to have them, they never belie ...
2 / There is nothing in the history of humanity as homo sapiens should be surrounded by one to two tons of scrap metal and plastic to get from point A to point B

We must therefore think of vehicles lighter and more aerodynamic as possible. The engine they need may be low power and low consumption will naturally as could say Sir Palice if he was here today.

You have observed that to do that, there is no need hyper-technologies necessarily very expensive. If one dares to move the numbers, let's say an empty weight around 400 kg and a power 30 CV to easily move one or two in the flow of the current traffic. There is no reason that this vehicle, 3 times lighter and three times less powerful does not cost 3 times cheaper (in terms of current automobile production).

HERE is the crux. Despite what we see every day and especially at this time of the Paris Motor Show, automakers are not that stupid. They know that reality perfectly. They know her so well that the idea that it is known to everyone record their nightmares! cheap cars? But what will our shareholders ?????

All their communication is directed to the fact that it will save the planet thanks to their super-technologies it will, alas my poor lady, pay dearly.
One of the striking evidence of this is communicating gonflette PRIUS, which is not better than C4 (or equivalent) for normal use. The case of those who spend several hours a day in traffic must be carefully studied and the solution is probably not car .....
The ultimate caricature is reached with the developers of the hydrogen car. Fortunately this will not last, as for agrofuels, fraudsters (the laws of physics) will soon be unmasked ....

"Going places, steady wins the race" is the basic principle of driving an electric vehicle. Those who practice the thing know that ultimately, the super cool driving and anticipatory they adopt has almost no effect on their travel time.
What they do not all know is that if you drive a classic car in the same way, we come to some surprising things. Eg C4 HDI 110 CV (and FAP!), This monster 1300 kg empty, consumes the 3,7 / 100 on a road course with crossing towns and villages. Anyone can try and check the thing ...

Our vehicle 400 30 kg and CV conceived as perfectly know how to do our automotive engineers, consume 2 L / 100 max. I expect the contradiction firm on this point. Please come with his calculator!

Back to our electric sheep ....
Take the figures announced for an electric car which is at the Mondial de l'Auto and which is "in the nails" of the "specifications", the SMERA. 150 km of autonomy with a battery storing 10 Kwh, or about 7 Kwh per 100 km, which is not bad at all.
For these 7 Kwh "on board", it took spend AT LEAST 21 kWh of primary energy, is just over 2 liters of diesel fuel .... The circle is complete, no matter the bottle, provided they have drunk, that permitted by the sobriety in this case!

If you want to go on the field of CO2, we will from the confession of Mitstubishi, that the battery life cycle brought km traveled equals 41 g CO2 (personally seen on television and reading in next topic ( Transportation-electric / Mitsubishi-Electric-emission miev-de-co2 41-g-per-km-t6280.html )
At these 41g, we will add the CO2 generated by the production of electricity. For the nifty little SMERA 7 KWh / 100 3200 represent g CO2 based on the average European electricity production (460 CO2 g / KWh).
Everything returned to km, we have: 41 + = 32 73 CO2 g / km
We 2600 CO2 g per liter of diesel and 73 g / Km match 2,8 L / 100 ....
It does not leave !!!!!

The question is therefore not "With what we advanced the car? "But," How many? "!
And before any paint in green or blue in the manner of our car manufacturers, you have to really tackle this issue.

Edit answer by speaking: read a primary energy balance (balance well to wheel) here: Transportation-electric / electric-car-and-heat-balance-well-a-la-wheel-t10080.html
Last edited by RIAZ the 12 / 10 / 08, 18: 51, 2 edited once.
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the middle
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View the middle » 05/10/08, 20:49

In a field that also affects the energy spent on travel, I have always wondered why the wagons of "passenger" trains were so heavy ... : Shock:
Frankly, I do not see the point.
But I'm not an engineer, there must be a trick :D
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bpval
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View bpval » 05/10/08, 20:54

Hello

superb issue

Accommodation mode

My wife returning from a garage sale was rewarded with a handbag (JOLIiiiiiii) to € five, while she said it is worth at least € 60

And a bike whore apartment 8 € she can not go back
My qué, I'll still stick me

Accommodation fashion OUT

Ah barter when you hold us


Accommodation fashion OUT .... Brothel

Well what was already the answer ... : Shock:
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bpval
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View bpval » 05/10/08, 21:06

Ah yes

I arrive there

In 93, I bought a V6 chrysler (my dream) to convey my holiday and why not my children ...
Not bad trips
A lot of memories
MANY petrol
...
The only children grew up and I am old (... not so much ... thank you)

And since June 2008 125 I circulates scoot CHINESE ... Yes
Bad for the trade balance .... Not that 899 €
and 3,8 liters per hundred (Technological horreureeee I admit ...)
But what a treat compared to 20 liters of chrysler
As a djeun

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Hello
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bpval
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View bpval » 05/10/08, 21:09

Re

correction ON

The handbag is JOLIiiiii

More

Not very practical

grinding out
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dirk pitt
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Re: To be or not electric Electric, That Is not the issue




View dirk pitt » 06/10/08, 09:56

RIAZ wrote:To have these 7 Kwh "on board", it will have been necessary to spend, AT LEAST, 21 Kwh of primary energy, that is to say a little more than 2 liters of diesel….


I minore a little bit about tone as it is commonly accepted that the electricity generation from fossil comsomme about 2.5kwh primary energy per kwh final. (Not 3 or more)
but that said, you do not consider conversion efficiency electricity / battery chemistry that is not unitary.

Old battle performance well-to-wheel between electrical and fossil spring. I think it has no place.
given that the "well" for the electrical part can be very different from one mode of production to another, we make the figures say everything and its opposite but I think that overall the figures are of the same order of magnitude between electric and thermal.
The difference:
-the thermal loses most of its efficiency close to the "wheel" (more than 60% lost in the engine)
-electricity, when it is manufactured with the same primary fossil source, loses most of its efficiency, close to the "well" with 60% lost in production

by against, 100% agree with the notion of essential downsizing of the automobile. 1.5 carry around a ton man and everything to 130km / h is useless. Mobility if it wants to survive must be energy efficient.

I still think a few electrical benefits without the miracle and universal solution.

-a hand (only one part) increasing of electric vehicles can be a solution when the oil depletion will that this commodity will decrease to 4 5% per year. (That's tomorrow) If you wish to maintain a level of mobility (km / personne.an) we will have to compensate for this loss by regular and inexorable something. on the other hand may be offset by consumption decrease.

-a share of electricity production may be from renewable sources including local way. for conventional fuels, it will be diffcult (see the current debate on fuel agros)

-The electric propulsion centralizes the production of harmful emission at the production centers outside the cities, which is a major health gain. Production centers are controllable and industrial sites that can more easily adapt to technical past.

-the storage of electricity in the EV batteries is a very good regulator of power consumption in a country. We know that regulation is a major problem of networks and a factor of low yields. Production must always be equal to the consumption of a network. experiments are being conducted in the US with fleets of EVs equipped chargers communicating on the network to use the max when the network is in excess and consuming less or not at all during the peaks. all in conjunction with the need of the course user.
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View Christophe » 06/10/08, 10:32

Very good debate.

1) I changed the title to make it more eye-catching on the search engine.

2) Here's the video in question or Mitsubishi talks about 41 g / km: https://www.econologie.com/mondial-de-l- ... -3943.html

This subject reminds me of an "old" calculation: the eco balance sheet of a TGV in GJ / passenger.km

All inclusive was very nearly as advantageous and clean ... we think would take these calculations ...
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RIAZ
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View RIAZ » 06/10/08, 15:02

Dear Christophe, make a catchy title is good, but change its meaning is not.

In my case, talking about electric drive (or with seagull droppings) makes no sense as we have not reduced so DRASTIC the need for useful energy for individual mobility.

This is the major question in which the major players in the automotive sector do not want to be interested because they fear negative repercussions on their business which they imagine could continue "as usual" as they say there.
This "As usual" must be completely forgotten.

The debate of the moment, is not technical. I agree with the remarks of dirk pittWe can always finesse with numbers. This part of my post just wanted to show that electric propulsion is not, in itself, a solution favorable to the environment. It comes to the same conclusions. I note in passing and with amusement, that city dwellers would rather agree to smoke out the campaign in favor of their little lungs. Small satisfaction as global warming, it's for everyone!

The debate is of a sociological nature and deals with our relationship with this great freedom to move and how to get it.
How, more bluntly, the ability to get through this reduction in energy demand. Everything else runs into the wall, only the blind can not see it. The burning issue these days, in another area, shows that the blind are numerous and highly placed ....

downsizing first as told dirk pitt and after we discuss the comparative advantages of electricity and seagull droppings.

It is easy to understand that this reflection will lead more easily to intelligent solutions for the planet that the need to use will be low. I just think some tracks ... for me, but not D .... there I must have this car and light ultra-simple!

Going to the Paris Motor Show Friday, you never know we might have good surprises. The fact that the press in did not speak would not be surprising. In my heart, I'm a bit like a paleontologist could have the chance to attend, live live, to the disappearance of the dinosaurs ...
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View Christophe » 06/10/08, 15:17

RIAZ wrote:Dear Christophe, make a catchy title is good, but change its meaning is not.


: Cry: : Cry: Sorry I thought to do well ...

Ben change our mobility I had included (in my head) in "physical limit" am I wrong?

If you were launching a debate on more "intelligent" mobility then you should not speak of "electric vehicle" in the title ... but simply mobility.

Regarding electricity, I just make a new one but rather access to the polluting emissions (CO2 and the rest): https://www.econologie.com/voiture-elect ... -3944.html
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View the middle » 06/10/08, 15:38

Today, some of my colleagues (red), prevented me from going to work ...
Reason? Strike to the purchasing power ...
The real reason, it's a day off, and a good drink with friends.
Some of them have told me there is little gain 3000 euros in total (job, family allowances, bonuses etc ...) : Shock:
So I opened the hood of my car, I've shown them that my car runs on recycled oil, I explained why I do this .. I tried to make them understand that other fights are more urgent ... they laughed, except one who had found a way to pay less for its gas oil
I note therefore, that the concerns are the worker side, silver, and the employers' side, money.
Ecology, the health of the planet? What is that ?
Straight into the wall; it is my belief
:?
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