Electric car environmental report

[Anarion]

Hello !


I'm desperately looking for a full environmental assessment of the "typical" electric car or even a specific example,
There are some, but they are contradictory because they forget the factors weighing the balance towards an electric vehicle with a cleaner or less clean balance than the vehicle with an internal combustion engine! (using fossil fuels)


In summary I am looking for two comparative studies of "typical" electric vehicles and one running on gasoline.

Or then two studies of precise cars (Blue car and 206 completely at random for example), the study enough complete if possible to be able to compare the two.


I am also interested in all the serious links that there are on pollution around the electric car (lithium polymer battery etc etc ...) as well as their CONCRETE consequence on the environment

It’s hard to sort through the information caught on the internet ... in advance, thank you!

[Christophe]

Hi and welcome.

This is a very good question and as for photovoltaics, "complete" studies seem very rare personally I have never found any but I am convinced, given the number of students in France, that there is a complete study somewhere

You mention having found some studies, could you clarify what it is exactly?

In terms of use, it is clear that an electric car SEEMS more ecological.

Roughly speaking, it takes between 0.15 and 0.5kWh "mechanical" to make a car do 1 km. Then you have to see the different yields of the energy "chain".

In the same kind of calculation, we could estimate the "train" ... I am convinced that it is much less "clean" than the Sncf makes us understand ... starting with the unfavorable payload / total load ratio to trains!

[Anarion]

Thank you!

I was very interested in the pollution that the electric car would bring in addition or less to today's average car

Do you think this plan would cover all or a good part of the subject?

1-electric propulsion

a- no rejection of C02 (shema of an electric motor)
b- an engine allowing energy savings
- no loss of engine energy when cold
- transformation of kinetic energy during braking
- energy efficiency better than the engine) explosion (25% or 75% energy loss for 15% efficiency or 85% loss for a gasoline engine)
- use in town much less "consuming" (during a traffic jam the internal combustion engine continues to run)

2- The batteries

a- conventional batteries
- lead acid gel
b- lithium battery, revival of the electric car
- lithium ion (principle of battery operation)
- lithium polymer?


3 - how to produce electricity

a- totally different electricity production for each country (majority nuclear in France, see a table of the different types of electricity in Europe)
b- Nuclear, coal ...
(the production of electricity which makes that an electric car has a positive balance in the end, or that it has a negative)




When I talk about study, I mean in particular that:

http://www.unige.ch/sebes/textes/1995/95PLautoelec.html

[Christophe]

Your reasoning is correct, I have precisely the same.

Unfortunately for your point 2) I am incompetent to answer it (I hope it will be more the case when this subject will have evolved).

Hold your problem makes me think of an American study which gave the hummer more "ecological" than the Prius in overall balance:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/le-hummer- ... t3044.html

That the prius and the concept of hybridization (?) Of the engines is not the panacea (the gain is limited to the acceleration / braking phases therefore ... in town!) I agree but to say that the hummer is better there is a step that I would not take! But hey it was American this study ...

This link of the classification of vehicles should also interest you:
https://www.econologie.com/classement-ec ... -1078.html

[Christophe]

I just put the 2007 classification:

https://www.econologie.com/classement-ec ... -3558.html

Strangely the "small" BMW 118d equipped with theefficient Dynamics of series for the price even equipped with a laguna dci does not appear ... it started in series 3 (so already bigger and heavier).

BMW 1 series not sold in Switzerland

[Anarion]

Ok, thank you, it helped me to clarify a few points, I think I have abandoned a study of a specific example, I don't have the time or the means, like the American study of prius I will develop my problematic, by simplifying obviously (the path of employees notably ^^)


In my part 1-b, I have some problem to define the energy losses of the engine when it is "cold", could you shed some light on this point? (is it at the level of the battery, of the oil?)


and what are the reasons for the loss of part of the electricity in the electric car? It is done in the cables, the converter, the regulator the engine itself, in other points?

[Chatham]

The energy balance of the electric car is extremely bad: if the power plants were running on petrol, well it would almost double the petrol per 100km traveled compared to direct use in a petrol car, all because of the fact that the efficiency of the different stages is far from being 100% and they are numerous and add up ... When the power loss of the batteries in cold weather, do not forget that it is a physico-chemical reaction which produces the current, and these reactions are slowed down by the cold ...

[Christophe]

The energy balance of the electric car is extremely bad: if the power plants were running on petrol, well it would almost double the petrol per 100km traveled compared to direct use in a petrol car, all because of the fact that the efficiency of the different stages is far from being 100% and they are numerous and add up ...

I am of the same opinion but concerning the "double" report I do not know because I have never made a detailed "global" assessment. Could you detail the different points that bring you to this conclusion?

Otherwise we could perhaps take stock together not on this subject right?

Especially since this calculation could apply to trains ...

[Anarion]

to make this assessment it is necessary to take stock of the "extraction at the pump" for electricity and gasoline, then the gasoline / electricity losses in the use of the car

As said in the study link a little above, it seems difficult to compare them:


- It is necessary to determine the type of production of electricity (how to compare nuclear / oil?) And their ecological consequence of these different types
- It is necessary to trace exactly the path that borrows the 2 energies and the ecological cost of each of these passage (in other words the losses during these passage = waste, it is still necessary to convert these losses into a common index?)


I do not see how to associate with each factor of energy loss / energy gain / pollution an index in order to find 2 results that we could compare, in my opinion the only solution would be to put into practice on several places, take the results and make an average!

[Christophe]

to make this assessment it is necessary to take stock of the "extraction at the pump" for electricity and gasoline, then the gasoline / electricity losses in the use of the car!

Yes in this case we are talking about a balance sheet "well to the wheel" (well it should rather be on the road but I quibble).

For gasoline from the "well to the pump" the coef. varies between 1.15 and 1.3 depending on the tanker ("all inclusive). (see this doc: https://www.econologie.com/agriculture-b ... -3503.html )

Well I just talked about this kind of coef here this morning: https://www.econologie.com/forums/dpe-classe ... t4470.html