inter seasonal storage solar thermal

[plasmanu]

We have to meet. and discuss a little bit of it.
See you soon and happy new year lilian.

Emmanuel

[lilian07]

Plasmanu with pleasure ....
Between Ardéchois we will understand each other without a decoder ....
I think the hardest part is behind me but given the expert opinions it appears that I am wrong, would there be a challenge !!!

More seriously, the project seems very complex and it is a beautiful objective to give meaning to our existence !!!

[Obamot]

Tien, Plasma is reviendu ... Hi Auvergnat (by the way I'm not Swiss lol) I don't know where you looked for that, it's marked "regio genevesis"

For drilling I begin to see the contours of the problem and I think that drilling beyond 100m

Precisely, if you decrease the diameter, then you have to reduce the distance between the holes ... by how much? Mystery! Ask Canadians ...

Obviously I think that a deep drilling (23 °) is not to be overlooked if it is feasible and "rechargeable", in this regard I saw on sale a mast on a carrier (excavator crawler) 25 Tonnes not very expensive, I think we should be able to drill deep with this type of old equipment.

Apart from the technical means at your disposal (which I can see very well ...) if we do all the calculation of hours and work, is it not better to offer a solution with a result whose potential is predictable ... On the other hand, we will never know if shallow storage is playable, a cruel dilemma for both. But if this is the solution that is chosen, then you have to put the best luck on your side, switch to [MODE: "professional"], and drop [MODE "brico"] for the reasoning gets along. ..!

But for that you have to decide on one way or another once and for all, hey hey ...

[lilian07]

But for that you have to decide on one way or another once and for all, hey hey ...

I still think that you have to be a little open-minded and that you shouldn't lock yourself in one direction. The example of this project is revealing because it is very complex.
As I do not have a design office but only advice and a little means ... I realize what we call "the merry-go-round" every time we decide on an idea, we have to redo it. update on all the proposals to assess the best direction if not knowing it at the origin ...
The important thing is to continue the path less to take a single direction because it seems that it is guaranteed failure.
Drilling at 350m may not be that complicated "with heavy means" but I think this type of drilling is fraught with difficulties riddled with pro tips. Without counting the legislation ...

To date I have a little fondness (in my case) for the BTES, I will try to go after the BTES reflection to make this famous choice ...

And we all know, the problem is the choice but maybe this choice will fade with the accumulation of advice, calculations, tests and simulations ... great work in perspective ....

I chose a course of action to carry out this project, the concept of "robustness" which consists in reducing uncertainties (lack of knowledge, lack of means ... etc.) by increasing the critical size of the project (number of panels , number of boreholes, depth ...) and by keeping a plan B at all times which allows the project to be reversible at any time during its construction ...

I will have at least tried to put things on my side a little thanks to you it must be admitted .... I who thought I would bury a can of 200 liters of water at 6m at the start of the project to hope to heat the earth and recover this heat !!!

[Obamot]

Why don't you contact Professor Hansjürg Leibundgut ...?

This type is THE best specialist in the world, and moreover he is a bit like DD, he only dreams of developing this type of process, which represents the rehabilitation of 95% of the existing building stock.

http://www.fcl.ethz.ch/person/prof-dr-h ... eibundgut/

It is a global issue. Maybe you could motivate ETH to do a pilot project on your construction? Since it is a protected construction and you have no choice!

It would give you the best leads to follow at least immediately!
You should eventually insist at some point that the goal is to develop a DIY solution [...] like that your dream, that of DD and mine (and so many others) could be realized in the best possible conditions and we would no longer need to sinter ... ^^

[plasmanu]

At the bottom of my vaulted cellar, there is an (empty) wine tank 4,5m wide by 1.7m high and 2.5m deep with a steel look of 50 * 50cm and an outlet from the bottom. Above is my bedroom.

Adding hot water from the DHW could be a good idea.
On the other hand, my bottles of wine will be turned, I will have to move them, fortunately I have several cellars, including one intended for making a sauna / hammam.

The DHW (2 panels) is laid loose in my backyard.
Bulk copper in a cellar.
The water comes from the source. (12 to 14 °) whose buffer storage is in a cellar within 10m

Filling it with basalt (the tank) would be a good idea? to gain accumulation (that's a question).

Obamot: it still stands for the invitation , and sorry for the genevesis (Swiss): there I was very stupid.
Suddenly it will make you less far.
I was absent since December 21 and returned Thursday January 14 at home: it's a crazy story

[lilian07]

Thank you Obamot for the information I will try to contact by email this imminent scientist: Pr Hansjürg Leibundgut.
Failing to have answers, I will offer my land as a center for experimentation.
There is certainly research going on that is more advanced than the little information found on the internet.

For Plasmanu: I never know if you are serious in your questions and as you are an "expert" econologist I think that your idea is more likely to heat your wine cellar to see your room a little in this dark winter than to be able to offer you a good shower at 40 ° ....
I am not a follower of water / water CAPs but your source can be a good start to extract calories for DHW.

the accumulation with basalt (you are not likely to have such heavy stones ...) is not a good idea (more suitable water)
By cons you can really use your solar thermal panels for the benefit of DHW, with all the equipment you should be able to capture some calories.

[Obamot]

Take your time, he's a Swiss-German, they are very pragmatic and ... slow.

So you need a well-crafted and well-documented file. With them you are not entitled to 2 chances ... Failing to speak German it is better to write in English ...

It will take a maximum of detail on the house to be heated. And above all, explain what your constraints are! Cost issues and tell him what material you have. Also what is your budget for doing this. Find some info on him, he has published a lot of .pdf documents, you can use it as a basis for your canvas, he will be in "familiar territory" when he reads it! You really have to find an approach that speaks to them, such as insisting on the fact that for this type of approach to develop, they absolutely have to bet and develop a concept of "self-construction" based on the principle that 'there is 95% of the housing stock to be rehabilitated (he knows it, but that's what must be tilted in his mind again). Because I don't see very well otherwise (than with a good part of self-construction) that it would be possible to rehabilitate old residences, especially since it is not because there are owners that it proves that they are full of money ....! In any case, we have to overcome this and put forward the ecological issue GLOBAL ...

[lilian07]

Thank you for the info, I have to ripen the file a little in the details and that I look more closely at the publications of this gentleman.

Indeed, I share your opinion on inter-seasonal storage for the entire French fleet, it is not accessible (profitable) outside of self-construction .... and I would add that even in self-construction, this remains to demonstrate.
I hope to be able to evaluate this feasibility, but for that it will be necessary at least to have recovered 1 Joule of summer sun in full winter.

If we add to this problem the configuration of the properties and their owner with the sizing of the project it is certain that our 95% of starting homes goes through a filter with more or less large meshes .... it's CQFD !! !

[lilian07]

Hello,
I come back after a little while away. I come to give news of the project which is becoming clearer day by day.

If we admit that today BTES (storage in the ground by vertical drilling) works, then it is the economic parameter which makes it unsustainable.
There is most certainly also the middle of the soil which comes to make it non-reproducible and uncertain so come back to the uncertainty of the costs.

If we consider that the solar thermal panels and the boreholes are too expensive then it is necessary to go through self-construction or failing that the rehabilitation of second-hand system.

For my part, I always consider until proof to the contrary that the solar thermal system around the BTES can be viable in self-construction for the individual house if we gradually reduce the constraints and the uncertainties in particular on the drilling and the ground.

I always test flat thermal solar panels at a lower cost: that is to say without copper and keeping PE as a thermal vector which makes the task difficult.
2 types are being tested, one based on a black steel tray with 13mm PE on the underside (5cm pitch between 2 PE) in significant contact by compression and glue (1/4 of the surface of the PE in contact) therefore use of 20m of PE per m2 (cost 28 euros / m2).
the other type of sensor is made of 13mm PE embedded in concrete (2 to 3 cm) which is very light (currently 250 kg / m3 density). Cost 25 euros / m2
The second-hand market for solar thermal panels is today around 50 to 100 euros, this is my benchmark since I compare performance and durability if possible with this type of sensor.

the last key point (not to say keystone) is drilling.
To drill in any circumstance it takes power, a lot of power so to make drilling accessible it is necessary to reduce the diameter of the drilling as much as possible.
One of the tracks that I remember is the use of a pneumatic manual drill (similar to a jackhammer) for miners or quarries. Drilling machine which one finds at correct price (250 euros) of occasion. Disadvantage is a powerful compressor or ideally site.
I study the track of a borehole with electric perforator (1200W). I have already carried out a borehole at 4m in 25mm diameter (1 hour) with insertion of PER on the depth to test the feasibility of U-shaped probes as for the vertical geothermal energy of heat pumps.
The constraint is for the moment on the obligation to stop regularly in the drilling to inject air or water to drive out the debris. I did not install a rotating injection head on my rod extension (too expensive for tests), I continue my test on 10m now.
Last track that I do not neglect is the purchase of a small used hydraulic drilling machine, we find between 2000 and 5000 euros with its equipment.
Another track the use of a core drilling machine, which is natively provided with an injection source for drilling, this type of not very expensive core drilling machine has a power of 2000W but has the defect of making cores (sawing by diamond tool and therefore the core lifting constraint which reduces the effectiveness of the tool). The core drilling tools to my knowledge do not allow to make a destructive drilling (without core) with diamond tools, which would be very interesting for me since the core drilling is very easy to carry out, without noise and penetrates quickly into rock hard.

Depending on the desired power, the BTES includes a lot of drilling, it is easily beyond 50 drilling from 15 to 20m deep which allows to conclude that drilling remains the crux of the problem and that it must be made less expensive.
The BTES will have to restore around 30 to 40% of the stored energy which is lost in summer by definition (energy lost by sensors in summer: around 65% by simulation in my region with my conditions of use of sensors).

If you have ideas on sensors and drilling, I am interested.
Have a nice week end.