inter seasonal storage solar thermal

Solar thermal energy in all its forms: solar heating, hot water, choosing a solar collector, solar concentration, ovens and solar cookers, solar energy storage by heat buffer, solar pool, air conditioning and solar cold ..
Aid, counseling, fixtures and examples of achievements ...
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 23/12/19, 21:12

lilian07 wrote:In fact "if it were simple" that would already be in place, the difficulty as the solution besides lies in this profitability ....


We agree! And therefore affirm "In self-construction and with the lower costs of solar thermal panels and water-water heat pumps, off-season storage pays for itself in less than 10 years."is just a little peremptory.
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Christophe » 24/12/19, 11:21

I hardly see how a water-water heat pump can be used for inter-seasonal storage in a more interesting way than pumping calories in the ground as it has been done for decades.

Indeed its electrical consumption being very important: it is therefore necessary to couple it to a serious electrical storage if we want to target real inter seasonal storage !! At the price, even Chinese, of the stored kWh electric it is unthinkable ... if you add the margin of the importer / installer well it enters utopia!

A simple thermal buffer with passive exchanger can be raised more interesting but we do not work on the same range of T ° ... so we need more stored volume ...
0 x
Eric DUPONT
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 751
Registration: 13/10/07, 23:11
x 40

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by Eric DUPONT » 24/12/19, 12:48

For camarche, inter-seasonal thermal solar it would have to be on a city scale. However with liquid nitrogen we can store small quantities for several months without too much loss.
0 x
lilian07
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 534
Registration: 15/11/15, 13:36
x 56

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 24/12/19, 13:08

For storage to be useful, the stock temperature must not drop below a certain temperature (emitting capacity).
The geothermal heat pump is there as in a conventional drilling but only in backup (backup) when the temperature of the stock is around 25/28 ° (temperature below which the stock is no longer exploitable with very low temperature transmitters).

The heat pump thus works at very high efficiency (for a short time) and lowers the temperature of the stock which will then be more efficient at recharging solar thermal calories from spring, when the panels do not generally produce. can thus also be less energy-consuming in electricity at a phase out of phase compared to the peak of the ENEDIS winter consumption network.

The cost of thermal stock drilling is approximately similar to 2 conventional vertical deep (100 m) drilling.
Deep drilling requires a lot of power and a large drill while not necessarily being very ecological for a COPA of around 4.

The question I always ask myself and whether it is better to save a PAC or firewood, the association of the stock makes the 2 systems advantageous and I always have a preference for a system that reduces the use of electricity.
0 x
lilian07
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 534
Registration: 15/11/15, 13:36
x 56

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 24/12/19, 13:21

[quote] solar thermal inter seasonal it should be at the scale of a city [/ quote

Not necessarily, Drake Landing is at the scale of a district and shows the possibilities of storage in the ground from thermal solar. Several optimizations have been made to improve solar coverage which will reach 97% after 5 years of operation. What is surprising is that it was the simulations that made the project viable and also improved the system's performance.

Always provide a heating backup for such systems so it is important to choose the one that has an advantage in operating with a stock such as the wood boiler for example.
0 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 24/12/19, 13:26

Christophe wrote:A simple thermal buffer with passive exchanger can be raised more interesting but we do not work on the same range of T ° ... so we need more stored volume ...


I think that the discussions of the first 30 pages spoke well of a scheme: recharging in summer (and when possible in winter) of buried storage via solar thermal collectors, and discharge in winter via a water / water heat pump allowing to record the temperature level to a value sufficient to ensure the heating of an existing house.

Pure passive (without PAC), I don't think it can take you very far in the winter. Of course, we can bring out the eternal "Drake landing" example. But the houses are "new" and "thermos" mode.

Edit: posts crossed with those of Lilian07.
1 x
lilian07
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 534
Registration: 15/11/15, 13:36
x 56

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 24/12/19, 15:17

Here is what we get in temperature in the stock over 12 months of simulation the first year, on January 1st the earth is at 10 °.
40 m2 of solar panel / stock of 1500 m3 of earth, weather Bourg Saint Maurice in Savoie (pink graph)
average stock temperature 24,5 ° on December 31 (brown curve)
The blue curve shows the exit temperature from the earth stock.
There is a constant drawdown of 2000 W from October 15 to January 1.
We note that an operation with a heat pump is possible because the temperature of the earth on January 1st is around 24 °
I also think that a wood boiler would be just as relevant because it would also increase the average temperature of the stock.
What we do not see on the graph is that the second year we start the earth storage from a temperature around 22 ° C .... at the end of the 3rd year under the same racking conditions the stock is at 28 ° C.
Attachments
simulation.jpg
simu.jpg (380.16 KB) Viewed 3740 times
1 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 24/12/19, 15:59

Software is good, you just need to know how to impose physical limits on them ....
Do you hope to heat yourselves passive with a fluid at 28 ° C at the start of the heating period and at 24 at the beginning of January?
Do you hope to heat up with 2000W on average in Bourg St Maurice? Maybe, but in what accommodation? Compatible with 40m2 of panels and 1500m3 of storage?
We could continue ....
1 x
lilian07
I posted 500 messages!
I posted 500 messages!
posts: 534
Registration: 15/11/15, 13:36
x 56

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by lilian07 » 24/12/19, 21:35

Yes, there are many parameters in this kind of simulation, a certain number were given among around 200 others but the idea was not to develop this simulation scientifically.
Just see a glimpse of what's going on in the ground with high mountain weather, a thermal solar panel surface and a load of 2000W ....
The load in the project is replaced by the habitat with its own parameters measured with more or less precision.
This simulation associated with a costing makes it possible to define an RSI, RSI which is very close to another heating system but much less virtuous.
In terms of GHG and sustainability we can hardly do better, it is certainly the price of autonomy or at least a carbon neutral building in maintenance condition (but I admit that this project is a little complex in the details of implementation (because little feedback).
0 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9772
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2638

Re: inter seasonal storage solar thermal




by sicetaitsimple » 25/12/19, 16:53

lilian07 wrote:This simulation associated with a costing makes it possible to define an RSI,


In the present case, no, because independently of a cost estimate not presented, it is clear that this "virtual" installation would be quite incapable of supplying on its own the heating needs of an "average" dwelling located in Bourg. St Maurice.
0 x

 


  • Similar topics
    Replies
    views
    Last message

Back to "Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 178 guests