Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the ground

Solar thermal energy in all its forms: solar heating, hot water, choosing a solar collector, solar concentration, ovens and solar cookers, solar energy storage by heat buffer, solar pool, air conditioning and solar cold ..
Aid, counseling, fixtures and examples of achievements ...
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Between dreams and realities in Germany




by Obamot » 01/11/21, 11:15

izentrop wrote:
GuyGadeboisLeRetour wrote:Izy and the nonsense ...
Dear not, but when we throw out an off-topic "project" which turns out to be window dressing, a mirror with larks like "free energy", we would do well to turn it over. : Twisted:

Moral: leave the larks alone
But that doesn't tell us WHO “has the biggest of forum”? Eh?

There you are eligible in the first 3, come to rot at this point, and in a repetitive way, a subject as feasible and promising as it is fascinating, and which seals several technologies which all together, can only work. And you ask yourself the question?

In fact no, you are above all a demolisher of the forum : Evil:
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 11:16

On the technological background of the project:

guy wrote:There is a basalt stone infill inside the storage rack, which allows a storage capacity of up to 400 kWh / m³.
Due to the enormous surface structure of the heat storage mass (96 m² / m³), ​​the collected heat can be quickly absorbed, but also instantly delivered if necessary.


A few remarks on these figures:

a) 400 kWh / m3 = 40 L of fuel oil per m3 (per year I imagine) it is not nothing but it is not monstrous either ... for a house which consumes 2000L it would therefore require a storage of approximately 50 m3

How is the energy "pumped" from the basalt stones? It is easier to take energy from a liquid than from a solid ...

b) I am very perplexed about the 96m² of catchment necessary for each m3 of storage because it is HUGE and betrays a miserable overall yield : Shock: : Shock: : Shock: : Shock:

In Switzerland 1 m2 gives roughly 1600 kWh / year of direct radiation according to this map https://www.econologie.com/carte-solair ... ni-france/

Image

The storage yield would therefore be 400 / (96 * 1600) = 0.26% ????

It is a more than miserable performance in energy storage !!

So of 2 things one:

a) It's a technological joke

b) There is an error in these figures and it is written by a journalist who has not yet understood anything in thermal ??

ps: if it is 400 kWh / m3 stored PER DAY then we would have an efficiency of 95% ??
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Between dreams and realities in Germany




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 11:17

Obamot wrote:But that doesn't tell us WHO “has the biggest of forum”? Eh?


There is no point in beating you, you know very well that it is ME !! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:

By the way, do you know the toto joke and the dick contest at school? : Cheesy: : Cheesy: : Cheesy:
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 11:25

Christophe wrote:ps: if it is 400 kWh / m3 stored PER DAY then we would have an efficiency of 95% ??


Let's check it out:

Volumetric heat capacity (MJ / m³K) of Basalt: 2.3 - 2.6

1 kWh = 3.6 MJ
400 kWh = 1440 MJ

Over 24 hours at 100% recovery / storage efficiency, it is therefore necessary to work on AT LEAST 1440 / 2.6 = 550 ° C delta ...

That's a lot but it's not impossible ... except that the losses will be monstrous with such temperatures (I do not see how to achieve a storage efficiency of 95% with such temperatures).

The trick must therefore certainly work between 700 and 800 ° C delta!

Concrete does not like such temperatures!

Okay I'm watching the video now! : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen: : Mrgreen:
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 11:57

Another remark: basalt rock is also an insulator ... it seems to me ... all the more true if it is in the form of small rocks with air interstices ...

So the question is: how the solar energy from the "top" is transmitted to the bottom of the silo and generally evenly in the silo?

Unless they manage to get the molten stone in, I don't really see how the heat will manage to diffuse evenly in a solid storage (with more air)

And if there is a merger, how to design the silos? Except with refractory materials like blast furnaces I don't see ...
1 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Obamot » 01/11/21, 12:25

Well, the concrete insulates (it takes 1 meter compared to 1cm of PU ...?) : Cheesy: :D : Cheesy:

First of all, a big thank you for all these calculations.

For the “concrete”, it is me who suggested it, it supports as long as there is no reinforcement, if I do not say too blunders, it is the coefficient of expansion differentiated between the metal reinforcements and concrete - which is not the same and which is harmful (by causing the concrete to crack like during a fire for example, then causing the slabs to lose their bearing capacity), although my suggestion remains hypothetical, there the concrete would have no reinforcement (therefore no harmful Δ °) and it would not be load-bearing. The “only” major technical problem seems to me to be the location of the interchange. Because the pipes, for their part, were made of metal and therefore could not be embedded in a “concrete” at a desired isothermal temperature of 950 ° max. It is therefore necessary to provide a buffer zone.

As for the “service temperature”, it may be less than 500 ° C (Carnot cycle), which gives an idea of ​​the admissible stresses for the buffer zone.

The rest is plumbing ...

In any case, this system will be useful, because with renewable energies, what we need are STEPs and this concept gives us them ... If this system makes it possible to overcome peaks in consumption (and it can do so) then the problem of the “load factor” of the network seems to me to be solved. If he does what he promises, so much the better!

STEP
Last edited by Obamot the 01 / 11 / 21, 12: 26, 2 edited once.
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 12:25

Ok according to the video (a lot of blah blah ...) we are around 700 ° C of storage temperature ... on the other hand the pressures seem very strange to me !!! : Shock: : Shock: : Shock:

Screenshot 2021-11-01 at 12-18-49 Areos-Energie AG VPA-2 storage of solar energy by concentration in the soil.png
Screenshot 2021-11-01 at 12-18-49 Areos-Energie AG VPA-2 storage of solar energy by concentration in the soil.png (710.39 KiB) Viewed 1015 times


Apparently it is the air that would be the energy vector ... except that the air is not a very interesting energy vector: the air requires monstrous transfer volumes (roughly 3000 times more volume to be pumped with air as heat transfer fluid than with liquid water for example ...) and is not very good in exchange for heat!

Why don't they use water vapor? At 700 ° C the steam must have a very good cycle performance! : Cheesy:

I also find it hard to believe the small volume of their air exchanger on the video ...
1 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 12:31

Obamot wrote:Well, the concrete insulates (it takes 1 meter : Cheesy: :D : Cheesy:

First of all, a big thank you for all these calculations.

For the “concrete”, it is me who suggested it, it supports as long as there is no reinforcement, if I do not say too blunders, it is the coefficient of expansion differentiated between the metal reinforcements and concrete - which is not the same and which is harmful (by causing the concrete to crack like during a fire for example, then causing the slabs to lose their bearing capacity), although my suggestion remains hypothetical, there the concrete would have no reinforcement (therefore no harmful Δ °) and it would not be load-bearing. The “only” major technical problem seems to me to be the location of the interchange. Because the pipes, for their part, were made of metal and therefore could not be embedded in a “concrete” at a desired isothermal temperature of 950 ° max. It is therefore necessary to provide a buffer zone.

As for the “service temperature”, it may be less than 500 ° C (Carnot cycle), which gives an idea of ​​the admissible stresses for the buffer zone.

The rest is plumbing ...

In any case, this system will be useful, because with renewable energies, what we need are STEPs and this concept gives us them ... If this system makes it possible to overcome peaks in consumption (and it can do so) then the problem of the “load factor” of the network seems to me to be solved. If he does what he promises, so much the better!

STEP


Watch the video, there are answers to your questions (2nd half before it's blah ...)

I don't think that concrete, which is a composite material, therefore internal differential expansion, endures temperatures of around 700 ° C ... and especially significant daily temperature variations: -500 ° C over one night if they want to keep the promised 400 kWh / m3 per day!

After that, the feasibility of the tank is a detail: we know how to make refractory materials ... and if it is air that must be stored in the tank as heat transfer fluid and if it is buried, it would withstand some cracks, right? : Mrgreen:

I am more skeptical about the choice of (compressed) air as a heat transfer fluid ... would have to dig into their patents ...
0 x
sicetaitsimple
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 9792
Registration: 31/10/16, 18:51
Location: Lower Normandy
x 2648

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by sicetaitsimple » 01/11/21, 13:03

Christophe wrote:
if they want to keep the promised 400 kWh / m3 per day!
......
I am more skeptical about the choice of (compressed) air as a heat transfer fluid ... would have to dig into their patents ...


There is no 400kWh / m3 per day"promised. "They say their storage can store 400kWh / m3, which is not completely silly if the expected operating temperatures are reached, besides you checked it with the thermal capacity of the basalt.

For air, with solids there are few other choices. Cement manufacturers, for example, constantly heat and cool solids with air.
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79295
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 11028

Re: Areos-Energie AG VPA-2: solar energy storage by concentration in the soil




by Christophe » 01/11/21, 13:05

Another calculation to keep in mind (which I know well since it is my buffer ...)

1m3 of water that works in storage from 65 ° C to 20 ° C can store a quantity of heat of: 1000 * 4.18 * 45 = 190 MJ = 53 kWh = 5.3 L of equivalent fuel oil (6 considering the boiler yields .. .) vs 400 kWh / m3 with a delta of 550 ° C for basalt.

We can therefore have the storage value in kWh per ° C and per m3 of storage:

water: 53 kWh / 45 ° C = 1.18 kWh / m3. ° C
basalt (at best): 400 kWh / 550 ° C = 0,73 kWh / m3. ° C


Should compare with water vapor but I'm lazy ... over to you! : Mrgreen:
I imagine that Jean Rochefort's double must have done the math : Mrgreen:
0 x

Back to "Solar thermal: solar collectors CESI, heating, hot water, stoves and solar cookers"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : No registered users and 78 guests