#USTE: All immortal? (Transhumanism and philosophy)

General scientific debates. Presentations of new technologies (not directly related to renewable energies or biofuels or other themes developed in other sub-sectors) forums).
dede2002
Grand Econologue
Grand Econologue
posts: 1111
Registration: 10/10/13, 16:30
Location: Geneva countryside
x 189




by dede2002 » 14/02/15, 19:11

A perverse aspect of medical technology: it will soon no longer be possible to die of old age, for example the few deaths by "tetanus" of people over 80 ...?
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 14/02/15, 19:14

Ahmed wrote:Janic, you quote Paul's Epistle to the Romans: Could we not read it as a source of inspiration for transhumanists?
Contempt of the body and the value of a higher order (which would no longer be the law of God, but the instrumental rationality), the principal is there!


This is a relevant remark!
Contempt of the body and biases allowing its perpetuation (sex, food etc ...) was particularly present in certain religious groups such as the Essenes or some Gnostic sects.
The Essenes were convinced that they were immersed in the evil era, so any attempt to prolong human existence was considered a form of sin.
His last were virulent messianists waiting for the liberating apocalypse ...
We can not, as you mention, prevent yourself from operating an objective parallel between his movements and transhumanism.
For the trans / posthumanists the human body is considered as something weak requiring improvement, to see in extreme cases a replacement, the parousia is replaced by the singularity, and paradise by the cloud.
The only difference that separates the Gnostic Essenes from the transhumanists is the belief in the hereafter and in God.
Materialism, atheism, tehno-scientific anachism obliges, the transhumanist movements to see their salvation in this world here below, and the construction of a beyond is envisaged only through the technical conception ... for the rest nothing new under the sun!

It is quite interesting to note that through all his movements as ancient or contemporary is hiding powerful memetic structure working for their dissipation.


Ahmed wrote:

To put it another way, the survival and comfort of some finds its counterpart in misery and the threat of actual or potential destruction of other humans. This is a sad reality that we strive to hide in all possible ways.


It may indeed be from a meta-historical point of view to consider that technological development is a system in competition with others and that any advance favoring its development in a given niche will irremediably deteriorate another (as the biosphere even!).
What the ultra-liberals also omit to mention is that the accumulation of comfort - also relative is badly distributed either - is a gigantic mortgage on the future.
This "hyper-debt" billed on the backs of thousands of life forms, would be seen through a clever lie covered by a totally surreal form of promise of a better world!
Beautiful imposture, and beautiful insult to logic!
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963




by Ahmed » 14/02/15, 22:00

@ Janic:
In this case, for the body in question, there is not the ounce of a contemptuous attitude, but only a statement of the limits of human nature who would like a perfection, never reached, and which makes the simple statement .

I withdraw the word "contempt" and I replace it with that of "limits": this does not change the reasons on which the transhumanist currents are based.

@ Sen-no-sen:
What the ultra-liberals also fail to mention is that the accumulation of comfort - however relative is badly distributed - is a gigantic mortgage on the future.

Indeed, the counterpart of our comfort is in space and also in the time of the future.
This last point by the destruction of real and symbolic wealth that will no longer exist for potential * future generations and also by the fact that it is the value of the work of men to come and that it will never be effective ** , which allows the accumulation of value to continue and the system to delay its inevitable collapse.

* Potential because nothing guarantees a survival to collapse.
** Since it is already insufficient, all the more so will it be in a future already burdened with a deficit.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 15/02/15, 08:34

Ahmed hello
@ Janic:
Quote:
In this case, for the body in question, there is not the ounce of a contemptuous attitude, but only a statement of the limits of human nature who would like a perfection, never reached, and which makes the simple statement .


I withdraw the word "contempt" and I replace it with that of "limits": This is a good thing if it is not just formal because it fundamentally changes the very meaning of the texts in reference.

this does not change the reasons on which the transhumanist currents are based.So where, how is this transhumanism started? The biblical text, once again, provides its answer:
genesis 1-22 ¶ "The LORD God said: Man has become like one of us for the knowledge of what is good or bad. Let not now he stretch out his hand to take also from the tree of the life, eat it and live always !"

hello dede
A perverse aspect of medical technology: it will soon no longer be possible to die of old age, for example the few deaths by "tetanus" of people over 80 ...?
This is already the case for a long time!
0 x
User avatar
sen-no-sen
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 6856
Registration: 11/06/09, 13:08
Location: High Beaujolais.
x 749




by sen-no-sen » 15/02/15, 10:07

Janic wrote: The biblical text, once again, provides its answer:
genesis 1-22 ¶ "The LORD God said: Man has become like one of us for the knowledge of what is good or bad. Let not now he stretch out his hand to take also from the tree of the life, eat it and live always !"


If transhumanism reaches its goal, ie post-humanism, it will not be any more a question of being human, but of simple algorithmic entity incarnating in the sandstone of the possible one or more machines.
As far as the philosophical origins are concerned, the idea of ​​the man wanting to be God is very present in Greek mythology through the myth of Prometheus.
0 x
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 15/02/15, 14:18

If transhumanism reaches its goal, ie post-humanism, it will not be any more a question of being human, but of simple algorithmic entity incarnating in the sandstone of the possible one or more machines. Personally I do not believe in the machine substituting for the human, despite certain appearances.

http://www.auto-innovations.com/communique/287.html

As far as the philosophical origins are concerned, the idea of ​​the man wanting to be God is very present in Greek mythology through the myth of Prometheus.
I simply emphasized the fact of wanting to conquer death definitively because in the text there is no desire to be equal to (or a) god!
3-5: God knows it: the day you eat it, your eyes will open and you'll be like gods who know what is good or bad.
6 The woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasant for the sight, that it was, this tree, desirable for discernment.

And it is not for the future that machines will have such a possibility of discerning between good and evil!
Last edited by Janic the 15 / 02 / 15, 14: 34, 2 edited once.
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538




by Obamot » 15/02/15, 14:21

What would be the use of immortality, lived in an indescribable permanent suffering and impotence?

What it would be good if to "add life to years and not years to life"!

(said in particular Dr. C. Kousmine ...).
0 x
Janic
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 19224
Registration: 29/10/10, 13:27
Location: bourgogne
x 3491




by Janic » 15/02/15, 14:28

obamot hello
totally agree of course!
0 x
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963




by Ahmed » 15/02/15, 21:16

Synthetically, the first technical report in the world is what is called the first technique, which concerns walking, speaking, controlling the voluntary functioning of the body, then the second stage is the addition to this body of more specialized and more efficient extensions: simple tools.
Further development of these tools increases our ability to influence our environment (and to maximize energy dissipation); however, the human "engine" is a limit (already) to the capacity of the tools: the machine represents a much higher stage in that it is able to function. wherever you are of the human, with a much greater power; the robot accentuates the difference, since it "ape", in a way, all or part of human adaptability by integrating mechanical capacities.
As already mentioned, the technosphere acts powerfully on the biosphere (including man) and the technical power grows faster than the adaptive possibilities of man, so the evidence of "augmented" man emerges. which is constituted at the same time in continuity and in rupture of the "restored" man, decisive rupture since it is a question of going beyond nature.
This stage does not end the series of logical metamorphoses, since it has its own limits: therefore, humans appear to be globally out of date, despite numerous "updates" and at this point, their elimination in favor of metamorphosis. artificial organisms complete (in both senses of the term) evolution.
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."
Ahmed
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12298
Registration: 25/02/08, 18:54
Location: Burgundy
x 2963




by Ahmed » 15/02/15, 21:46

Obamot, could you be clearer?
0 x
"Please don't believe what I'm telling you."

Back to "Science and Technology"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : gegyx and 139 guests