Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?

General scientific debates. Presentations of new technologies (not directly related to renewable energies or biofuels or other themes developed in other sub-sectors) forums).
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Christophe » 16/08/21, 16:42

From what I understood it is a powder ... so no it is a dilution ..
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Obamot » 16/08/21, 16:51

I think I found something ... but : Arrowd:
Christophe wrote:
ABC2019 wrote:on the one hand nothing of this "new physics" contradicts the great principles of physics



ABC? Do you know the surface tension equations?

Let's wait ...


So wait! : Mrgreen:
0 x
ABC2019
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12927
Registration: 29/12/19, 11:58
x 1008

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by ABC2019 » 16/08/21, 21:32

Christophe wrote:Indeed: even if the evaporated water condenses on the top slab of the thermal buffer, this creates a "heat pump" which causes the hot water to lose calories in the buffer ... For a swimming pool evaporation constitutes the main part of the heating losses! In the case of a thermal buffer, the air is quickly saturated the effect is less great BUT the temperature can be much higher suddenly there are necessarily losses all the same (I cut the heating of the buffer at 65 ° C because each ° C gained during the day above 65 ° C, will be lost the following night...)

not sure to understand your problem, if your tank is not open, there is a priori no evaporation so no loss? swimming pools evaporate through their free surface, but already a cover slows down evaporation considerably. The same goes for a lid on a saucepan, even if it is not 100% waterproof, it still greatly limits losses.

But otherwise I am not a specialist in surface tension. A liquid will tend to spread out to minimize its potential energy, but there is a cost in terms of surface area. We must therefore write the total energy of gravity + surface term due to surface tension, with a term for the free surface and a term for the interface with water - in principle the liquid will adopt the minimum energy. But hey you have to know the coefficients to do the calculation. The best is to try it out with a few mm and see if it works.
The main problem in my opinion is the chemical stability against oxidation, vegetable oils end up oxidizing, it's probably better with silicones?
0 x
To pass for an idiot in the eyes of a fool is a gourmet pleasure. (Georges COURTELINE)

Mééé denies nui went to parties with 200 people and was not even sick moiiiiiii (Guignol des bois)
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Christophe » 16/08/21, 21:49

It is closed and not 100% filled nor 100% waterproof ... there is still a volume of air * like a saucepan as you say!

There is therefore a permanent evaporation / condensation loop in the air part above the surface and on the air surfaces (necessarily colder than water ..) as in a saucepan ...

The concern is that I cannot try life-size: I only have the right to 1 test ... but I could do tests in basins ... but will that be representative?

How much does a silicone oil cost at L (I know that in a spray ...)? Which product are you thinking of exactly? A reference ?

* a solution would have been to fill it up to the slab but this is not possible because there is an overflow which prevents this ... and without an expansion vent (there is none) this will have posed concerns of enormous stresses on the slab during expansion ...
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Obamot » 16/08/21, 21:51

You ain't got nothing more interesting to tell us :?: To calculate in relation to the surface? And what are you doing with Δ ° :?:

Physicist of my two ... :P Plagiarist...
0 x
ABC2019
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 12927
Registration: 29/12/19, 11:58
x 1008

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by ABC2019 » 16/08/21, 23:07

Christophe wrote:It is closed and not 100% filled nor 100% waterproof ... there is still a volume of air * like a saucepan as you say!

There is therefore a permanent evaporation / condensation loop in the air part above the surface and on the air surfaces (necessarily colder than water ..) as in a saucepan ...

a priori there should not be that much evaporation if the atmosphere is saturated ... but hey maybe.
if not for the price I do not know there I see a can of one liter for 20 €

https://www.mercerie-durand.com/PBSCPro ... QAvD%5FBwE

but we should check that it is less dense than water, apparently some are less dense and others more dense ...
1 x
To pass for an idiot in the eyes of a fool is a gourmet pleasure. (Georges COURTELINE)

Mééé denies nui went to parties with 200 people and was not even sick moiiiiiii (Guignol des bois)
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Christophe » 16/08/21, 23:10

Yes it's saturated but it must still condense like the lid of a saucepan: saturated but it condenses so it desaturates ... so it loops ...

I will look at the link thank you
0 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Christophe » 16/08/21, 23:14

0.78 density according to the datasheet: https://www.spirit-spray.com/download/s ... liquid.pdf

On the other hand, the flash point at 72 ° C will not do it ... another suggestion?
0 x
User avatar
Obamot
Econologue expert
Econologue expert
posts: 28725
Registration: 22/08/09, 22:38
Location: regio genevesis
x 5538

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Obamot » 16/08/21, 23:58

Let's get to the point, because once again ABC2019 shines with its utter incompetence!

Let's start from the beginning ...

We had already talked about your thermal balloon / swimming pool, but I have not found the thread.

From memory I had to suggest to you that the “pile” effect would mean that the heat loss would not be done from the top but mainly through the masonry (and this unless you have an EIT, and review the insulation all around the house to a depth of 80cm (then polystyrene and protection from humidity with Delta MS / tarring of the masonry next to the ground).

So other than that, what can be done to improve the performance of the installation?

First, as we saw above, thermally insulate the masonry.
If it's not possible outside, then it should be done inside your pools (as much as possible).

Now, for the fluid, silicone oil having made me laugh, I suggest a more “industrial” and therefore economical solution: thixotropic bentonite mud (or drilling mud).

For those who know the “thix” in painting, it is this paint that allows you to paint ceilings without getting in your face ... It is liquid in movement and in the form of gel in the paint pot (it therefore liquefies during application only but does not flow onto the brush or roller, as if by magic)

Without being too mistaken, some of this sludge floats (there are even “sludge engineers” in the petrochemical industry), so it can serve as a thermal insulator, the big advantage is that if the level in your pool goes up or down. goes down, the mud layer follows the movement, and at the edges, the friction causes it to become more liquid to allow leveling. And the icing on the cake, this sludge filters perfectly well!

Have them carried out tests, and equip themselves with a mixer to make the mud miscible with water, that's how the mud rises to the surface and creates an insulating layer ... Here it is ... Here it is ... .
2 x
Christophe
Moderator
Moderator
posts: 79117
Registration: 10/02/03, 14:06
Location: Greenhouse planet
x 10972

Re: Thermal buffer: avoid surface evaporation of hot water with oil or other blocking product?




by Christophe » 17/08/21, 00:21

I put some links above Oba ...

I'll take a look at your idea.

Please note that the product must absolutely remain on the surface ... because the water from the buffer is sent directly into the panels ...

I can't risk the product blocking the panels.

There is insulation ... see links.
0 x

Back to "Science and Technology"

Who is online ?

Users browsing this forum : Ahmed and 175 guests