Science versus Intuition

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Science versus Intuition




by Grelinette » 25/02/14, 16:05

Hello everybody

Come on, true to my habits I open a new debate that will make you react I hope!

I have just read an interesting article which criticizes the great scientific schools for training scientific and technical specialists who no longer show creativity, especially once in professional activity.

They are accused of restoring their scientific knowledge, certainly of a high level, but as they have learned it, and of not seeking to go further. Clearly, not to seek to innovate, to exceed their knowledge, to analyze them under other aspects to make them evolve, as if the limits of science of which they have a good control were the limit of their creativity, and by way consequently the limit of progress.

Incidentally, and there it is a drift of the current system, we also criticize them for being at the disposal of the trade today: we are going to ask an engineer to make basic and fragile to make economic and renewable quickly: the famous planned obsoloscence that is so much talked about now.

This article appealed to me because it reminded me of the relationships I was able to have with the professors and students of the engineering school that I had requested for the hybrid carriage project: there is had no technical innovation on their part on the project, and the few technical remarks and proposals that I was able to make were dismissed unceremoniously and with disdain under the pretext that I was not an engineer ... : Evil:

Besides, the dissertation of the engineering student, which I was able to obtain with difficulty (I am not from the seraglio), and with which however I had good relations, begins with "Relations with Mr X (therefore myself) were difficult because the client, not being an engineer, had his truncated vision of the work to be done as well as a great enthusiasm which often made his thoughts escape the main problematic of the project. In fact, he was very often distracted and attached himself to details that were difficult to achieve and that were optional. After negotiations we arrived at the following specifications ... " : Shock:

However, none of the new materials that have been created, however simple, have been designed by teachers and students who have "simply" assembled existing industrial materials, some of which, in my opinion, are too complex and unsuitable. to the project.

Today, following an appointment with the INPI, some of the materials I had proposed are the subject of a study by a specialized firm with a view to filing a patent! (I hope it will succeed ... and I am sure that if this is the case, the teachers and the student will remind me of their good memories : Mrgreen: ).

Okay, I'm going astray and I'm getting away from the subject!

To come back to it, I wonder if the Science, discipline taught, and Intuition, a quality neglected in high-level education, are not the 2 essential motors for Progress.

There are, moreover, great phrases on this subject by Albert Einstein, who moreover had been denied by the scientific community of his time:
"Imagination is more important than knowledge".
"Imagination is more important than knowledge, for knowledge is limited, while imagination encompasses the whole world."
"The impression of knowing is the most perfect obstacle to knowledge and progress".

Here, I add a last one that I have just invented:
"In terms of progress, science is the bicycle, innovation is the cyclist". (copyright and copyright: Grelinette of course! : Mrgreen:)

(I wanted to replace Bike by Horse and Cyclist by Rider, but that devalues ​​the horse too much which often shows intuition!).
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by sen-no-sen » 25/02/14, 19:58

I think the title of the subject is incorrect, opposing science and intuition is like opposing a tool and a work.
Most of the great scientific discoveries are based on an intuitive phenomenon.
Scientists like Einstein or Heinsenberg liked to withdraw from the world to engage in introspection, source of their "flashes of genius".
The philosopher Nietzsche walked daily for several hours in the mountains, it was for him a form of active meditation.

The current problem stems from the materialist conception of our society.
It is a logical consequence of the technical system: the work of man ended up acting retroactively on him, transforming it little by little into a machine, which leads by mimetism to calculating behavior at odds with the world of intuition .
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by Ahmed » 25/02/14, 20:16

There is indeed a permanent stress that inhabits scientists: competition during studies, races for grants for teams and the obligation to publish in order to "exist".
This search for formal productivity as well as the ultra specialization of research is in formal opposition to the serenity conducive to the advent, not of "progress", but of original ideas ...
Science, from speculative in the original sense, has unfortunately become so in the current sense and is no more than a peddler of industry.
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by Grelinette » 26/02/14, 14:07

I chose this title on purpose a bit controversial, but the word "versus" also has a meaning of comparison, of juxtaposition.

To use the metaphor of sen-no-sen Science / Intuition - Tool / Work, it joins the reasoning that I wanted to develop in my comment:
our system trains great workers specializing in powerful tools, but they don't create anything with it. Do they use it to maintain and develop an existing one, and to run a virtual and sterile economy, that of the organization that employs them. ("sterile" in the sense of creating money for money).

Regardless of the reasons for this observation, that "the current problem stems from the materialist conception of our society, or from a logical consequence of the technical system", the fact is that Science stops at the limits of scientifically proven knowledge, and that our scientific research system is confined to seeking within the framework of these limits.
But Science, by definition, has no limit since its goal is to go beyond them, to push them ever further. ("The staircase of science is Jacob's ladder, it ends only at the feet of God." A.Einstein).

It has often been said with humor that in France we have researchers who seek more than what they find!

De Gaulle had already declared in his time, like what this is not new: "Researchers who seek, one finds some. Researchers who find, one seeks."

There are many famous quotes on science and its "erratic evolution" due to a "misuse" of human scientific intelligence, starting with that of Montaigne: "Better a well-made head than a full head. ".

I also have that of Kenneth Boulding: “An economist is an expert who will be able to explain perfectly to you tomorrow why what he planned yesterday did not happen today”.
(There are other variations like "A good economist is the one who will explain today what should have been done yesterday").

These quotes perfectly underline the perfect knowledge side of the mechanisms and tools, but notes the absolute inability to anticipate and predict, to intuit.

As Ahmed says, perhaps today scientists are more used to "shopping for grants", and that's another point of view.

Today we are training more and more engineers, the scientific fields are the most valued, and yet the world of research seems to stagnate while swallowing colossal budgets, even if it is true, it must be said, researchers are very active and insightful.

This is another question: "Does science really need money to move forward?"

Some will say that money provides the means, others will emphasize that great discoveries have rarely been motivated by money.

To return to the meaning of the press article which accuses scientific training of over-motivating their students "to learn rather than to understand", he denounces the submission of science to commerce (industry), moreover he It should be noted that a number of leading scientific schools now offer complementary courses in commerce,
The article also points out that today's scientist no longer uses his knowledge enough to produce scientific knowledge (he produces money).
Of course, it is perhaps better to be "a rich seeker who has found nothing" than a "poor seeker who has found much".

We find more and more scientists in financial structures who develop extremely efficient algorithms to generate money (traders).

Go to finish and test your knowledge of great scientists and their discoveries, here is a quiz:
http://www.linternaute.com/science/ques ... 759/d/f/1/
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by Janic » 26/02/14, 16:03

the failure of the research (despite its numerous discoveries) is its hyper specialization with a joint loss of an overview. To take an example it is like the passage from the magnifying glass to the scanning electron microscope MEBT, STEM to the point that it is no longer perceived what the magnifying glass allowed to see.
Each discovery is like one of the multitudes of pieces of a puzzle that no one is able to put together.
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by Remundo » 26/02/14, 16:43

it itches to intervene a little ...

this subject is dense, it is not easy to frame the debate ...

In full on the subject: it is useless to oppose Intuition and Science. They are perfectly complementary. Scientific reasoning and experience need intuition to be born, and conversely, intuition needs science to be confirmed or invalidated.

The brightest minds are those who intimately combine scientific rigor and "intuitive freedom", those who allow themselves to think / experiment differently, and sometimes even against all odds, and who back science to these unconventional thoughts, so that instead of remaining eccentric, they ultimately impose themselves as relevant and just visions ...

Otherwise much more anecdotal: the "engineers", especially the young, are no more. There is a vertiginous drop in level, both in the mastery of the French language, as scientific bases, even among "engineers". This word hardly has any meaning now, by the way ...

And more, but this is a general trend, modesty and listening to each other are two qualities that are discreet, especially among young people, who do not listen to each other in general, and are content with speak louder than the other. Well comforted in this by what we see on TV. Debates of braillous, idiocrites and other sophists or professionals in smoking. The verbal jousting replaces reflection, the spectacle replaces constructive debate ...

So sometimes, these famous "engineers", especially young people, without experience, neither ease of expressing themselves nor good technicoscientific bases, with the need to assert themselves, have only one recourse to a little arrogance. pseudo-technician so as not to lose face.

You must also tell you, dear Grelinette, that the "projects" in engineering schools are often of very poor technical quality; for students it is just an exercise in style, and even those who would like to do well are stuck in a system; not enough hours or resources to seriously do the "job". I experienced all this from the inside 10 years ago ...

When it comes to end-of-studies projects, quality and seriousness come back more because there are more means (more comfortable financial envelopes that avoid working with strings and nails) and hiring with the industrial partner at stake ...

But you, Grelinette, you are not an industrial partner, your coupling project is more useful for the engineering school to keep its students occupied for a quarter than the engineering school will not do you any services ... .

Afterwards, "miracles" can happen, but it is rare :D

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by Grelinette » 26/02/14, 18:05

Thank you for this factual response, Remundo.

You bring a new angle of view on the subject, that of the feeling of certain young / new engineers to consider themselves "superior" and to become arrogant.

Having said that, this subject is actually bushy, and not easy to frame, as you say. There are so many things to say.

Your point of view seems to me however to join certain comments in the sense that the spirit and the scientific behavior are not any more what they were: "One" becomes today engineer for the social level and the salary, not for science .

Besides, recently I attended a discussion between young engineers from different high-level scientific training, and I was very surprised to find that they compared their training only on the salary levels they could claim with their diploma. !

To return to the title "opposition between Science and Intuition", complementary qualities as you also say it, it is precisely to bring out that these 2 qualities necessary to the scientist are not found any more associated in the scientific spirit, and, more embarrassing, that the large schools neglect to develop this taste for intuition to their future scientific students.

I also wanted to express by this title, this old debate on the predominance of "Technocracy", (the wikipedia page is also interesting on the subject. This is not quite the meaning of the debate, but it does join him. Remundo will say that the debate is still going on in a bottle! : Cheesy: ).

I take on this mess (I'm not a scientist, so I don't have the rigor : Mrgreen: ), but I like to debate a subject by first putting everything on the table, then taking the arguments, points of view, opinions one by one to study them. (it's almost scientific as an approach! ...).

Sorry Remundo, but I'm still going to open a new debate track that will not settle the bushy side of the debate:
I just learned a new word that links Science and Intuition: Serendipity : chance, the accident resulting from the risk taken by certain scientists who went astray on a track which made them make, by mistake, a scientific discovery. Very interesting.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9rendipit%C3%A9

A recent program on France Inter ("la tête au carré") spoke about it last week, I will try to find the link in a podcast.
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by chatelot16 » 26/02/14, 18:18

intuition is essential to science

alas teaching strives to despise intuition by the abuse of mathematics mathematician

neologism to compare with political politics

true mathematics is also a noble science where intuition is useful ... but at school we transform math into a means of selection

so only those who are able to fill equation pages quickly enough we have the privilege of doing studies ... and we end up having engineers who don't know how to do anything other than math

and we see those who had real vocation find themselves in school failure

to support this system I cheated, I despised their math and kept my pifometre ... I just pretended to be good in math to go to the upper class, but learned a lot of things elsewhere than at school to see the practical side first
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by Remundo » 27/02/14, 10:53

Hello everyone
Grelinette wrote:scientists are no longer what they were: "We" now become engineers for the social level and the salary, not for science.

It is quite true: the diploma becomes a key to career development and networking, much more than a real applied science tool.

In these small microcosms and other castes that constitute the large bodies from engineering schools, we ask ourselves the question "how much do you earn?", But never "how do you create?" ... And hardly ever "are you happy in life?"

Otherwise, it's even more subtle than that: I think that many young engineers do not feel superior, but they are forced to act as if. They are in a permanent dilemma, a socio-professional and psychological tension that a whole pretentious system has created, the effects of which are multiplied by the massive deindustrialisation of France.

So "we" can no longer be affirmed by the quality of the products created or manufactured, so "we go" in the technico-declarative sketch ... You only have to look at the brochures of the engineering schools, which gargle slogans and various lyrical flights of all kinds ...

We have to impose ourselves, give the illusion that we are "the smartest, the most impactful and intelligent" ... from not much. So if the young engineer does not want to die professionally, a good dose of arrogance is the only solution for him. Except in the rare case where he has developed cutting-edge technical skills fully in line with the company that hires him ... in France?

Concerning Chatelot : one cannot completely blame the engineering training system for doing a lot of science without sufficiently stimulating creativity and intuition ...

The problem is that creativity, intuition, it cannot be taught and it cannot be evaluated, it therefore does not select individuals.

Regarding "excess theory" in elite education in France, that's correct. The Germans / Swiss have a whole network of Technische Hochschule which provide a much better balance between learning and young people who are much more operational, in direct contact with successful SMEs.

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by chatelot16 » 27/02/14, 16:46

but if intuition can be taught! by experience

to calculate a spring, we can put everything in equation ... but if we have seen various springs, in various machines from toy to truck suspension, the pifometre lets us know what the solution looks like ... less precisely than the calculation but faster

the brain has a completely mysterious way of integrating all the experience to make the pifometer work

to have a certain creativity it is necessary to envisage a lot of solution to find the best ... if for each solution it is necessary to make an hour of calculation to see what it is worth we do not advance ... with experience and the pifometre we roughed up the problem much faster: the calculation only serves to choose the best, among which the pifometre has already selected

experience and pifometre also have an advantage: detect gross miscalculations

so I think that in technical and scientific education we should dismantle a lot more to see in practice how it is made

another way of experience, drawing in books: in old books it is very realistic drawing, often real machine drawings that exist, now we only see drawings made by computer without any realistic proportion: so everything these bad drawings do not feed the experience, or even the false one completely: it is with this lack of experience that engineers arrive at the end of training without any experience allowing to size a piece without calculating everything in detail

another loss of experience in mechanics: when I was little a lot of things had the mechanics clearly visible: so everything that we saw was useful: now everything is hidden under hoods, and if in addition the drawings that see in the books are wrong, there is more than taking apart yourself that you can realize

Another example in automotive mechanics: the RTA automotive technical review until 1980 was full of very detailed sectional plan ... now there are only exploded views that do not allow us to understand
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