Handling and interpretations of scientific studies

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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 02/12/11, 17:14

Clear scientific evidence is still missing for

homeopathy

which is not a placebo effect, with a product without any molecule in it !!

Even more missing evidence than for Rossi and others with Ni and H.

In 1861, the year in which Pasteur published the scientific refutation of spontaneous generation, Semmelweiss, who had not published anything clear, remained almost unknown and refused, only to end up in a mental asylum in 1965 !!
So say:
shows that there was only a few doctors unaware of its existence (despite the fact that there was no internet), ... for Semmelweis.

is archival!

Pasteur did not know Semmelweis in 1961 and provided much more complete independent scientific evidence on fermentations, the basis of everything he subsequently discovered, applied to silkworms, wines, animals and then to man with scientific efficiency, despite a stroke !!
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by Janic » 03/12/11, 08:27

dedeleco hello
Clear scientific evidence is still missing for
Quote:
homeopathy
which is not a placebo effect, with a product without any molecule in it !!

The search for scientific evidence according to the allopathic method is nonsense. We are also not looking for scientific evidence of acupuncture, dowsing, osteopathic or chiropractic manipulation by allopathic methods. What shows (scientific or not, the patient does not care as his first layer) is the concrete result. But if thousands of allopathic doctors turn to them as well as millions of patients, this is what shows more than test tubes. For the placebo side, the effect of which does not exceed 30% (including in allopathy), it will be necessary to explain the remaining 70%, yet opponents of homeopathy have a deafening silence on this point.
Even more missing evidence than for Rossi and others with Ni and H.

When Rossi's experiences have 200 years of practice, we will talk about it again!
In 1861, the year in which Pasteur published the scientific refutation of spontaneous generation, Semmelweiss, who had not published anything clear, remained almost unknown and refused, only to end up in a mental asylum in 1965 !!

Semmelweis has in fact published nothing that has come down to us, on the understanding of a book. Whereas, I suppose, in this country like ours, all doctors communicate their clinical findings. But the opposition of his head of clinic, plus the doctors who walked backwards to wash their hands, did not facilitate communication, it was outside doctors who spread his method, not him. So Pasteur had probably heard of it!
Professor Delbet points out in his work, all the opposition to his method by refusing to communicate because as soon as we get off the rails ……. Likewise homeopaths are denied the same. A review like Prescrire (for pharmaceutical purposes) is itself more than discreet about all these unconventional methods, it does not advance schmilblick and therefore science.

So say:
Quote:
shows that there was only a few doctors unaware of its existence (despite the fact that there was no internet), ... for Semmelweis.
is archifaux! Pasteur did not know Semmelweis in 1961 and brought much more complete independent scientific proofs, on the fermentations, bases of all that he discovered thereafter, applied to silkworms, to wines, to animals then to man with scientific efficiency, despite a stroke !!

I did not say that he knew, personally, Semmelweis, but that his method was known in Europe and America and it is unlikely (not impossible) that he ignored it. But then again, this does not take anything away from what he did positively, even if it was in line with someone else (this is very often the case in medicine or in industry). By cons you have not read the article on Béchamp apparently! A number of things he claimed to have discovered were just hacking (to say the least!)! I know it's a falling myth. Again no matter what the character was, honest or not, what matters is that the Pasteurian theory on vaccination has revealed itself and still reveals a monstrous mystification (including after his death) and who is verified in the official figures (INSERM, INVS for France) and likewise for other countries with the same standard of living and science. All the vaccine techniques that were changed in its time and then all ended in resounding failures but from which the pharmaceutical industries derive substantial benefits.
If you don't agree, come up with figures (official of course!)
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by the middle » 03/12/11, 08:41

Try to kill a helicobacter invasion by homeopathy.
:D
Helicobacter pylori is a bacterium whose external structure is helical (hence its name "Helicobacter"), equipped with flagella, and which infects the gastric mucosa.
80% of peptic ulcers are caused by H. pylori infections, although in many infected humans the disease remains asymptomatic.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori
From experience, I know it doesn't work!
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by econololo » 03/12/11, 08:47

Janic wrote:
Clear scientific evidence is still missing for
Quote:
homeopathy
which is not a placebo effect, with a product without any molecule in it !!
The search for scientific evidence according to the allopathic method is nonsense.
Why?

Janic wrote:We are also not looking for scientific evidence of acupuncture, dowsing, osteopathic or chiropractic manipulation by allopathic methods. (...)
Not surprising ...

The placebo effect is scientifically proven.
Personally, it bothers me to know that the "medicine" (nothing in fact: water + sugar) that I am given, only works if I believe that it works and that on pathologies which heal by themselves. ....
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by Janic » 03/12/11, 09:31

Econololo hello
The search for scientific evidence according to the allopathic method is nonsense.
Why?

For the same reasons that we do not use the same engineers to design a boat, an airplane, or an automobile even if we find some common elements between each. Or an astronomer compared to a biologist where each one however uses an optical instrument. What is confusing is that in both cases the same term "drug" is used when another designation should be found which would avoid any confusion. The acupuncturist's needle, the naturopath's tea or the manipulations of the osteo cure and yet are not "drugs" either.
Janic wrote:
We are also not looking for scientific evidence of acupuncture, dowsing, osteopathic or chiropractic manipulation by allopathic methods. (...)

Not surprising ...

Of course this is not surprising, since not being placed on the same register. Can we say that none of these methods can be cured?

The placebo effect is scientifically proven.
Personally, it bothers me to know that the "medicine" (nothing in fact: water + sugar) that I am given, only works if I believe that it works and that on pathologies which heal by themselves. ....

Indeed, nobody disputes the placebo effect, but it is quantitatively the same whether in homeo or allo whose suggestive effect is identical. So once this slice is eliminated, what do we do with the rest? Furthermore, if the placebo effect can be recognized in adult humans: what about in infants, animals and agriculture? Besides, if the placebo effect was sufficient in itself, all allopaths and homeopaths would only use placebos.

The happy medium
Try to kill a helicobacter invasion by homeopathy.
From experience, I know it doesn't work!

It is to misunderstand the principle of homeopathy which many people speak about even having studied it a minimum.
That said: homeopathy like any care technique to its limits (like allopathy for that matter) sometimes it works quickly other times, in background treatment, it takes time (as in allopathy always). We must therefore stop seeing in it the miracle method that solves everything and its opposite. It is a technique among other techniques. Its difference from allopathy is its safety because if it does not work it does not create damage unlike allopathy which (recognized by the medical profession) is a benefit / risk balance therefore with risk. " First do no harm ". Hippocrates
Finally all homeopaths are first allopaths, certified by obtaining their diploma, and therefore supposed to know the possibilities and limits of each technique. Here too, we must stop considering homeo as mentally retarded people incapable of discernment when they have to do additional years of study to access this specialty, when it is so much easier to be satisfied with the curriculum classic and to rely on certainties (funded by the pharmaceutical industries)
And finally all these chemical poisons ingested by humans and animals that end up as pollutants of water and re-ingested by everyone: it is not very ecological either!
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 03/12/11, 14:08

janic aligns false absurdities with his instinctive beliefs:
Pasteurian theory on vaccination has proved and still proves to be a monstrous hoax

is archifal, first because vaccination was invented experimentally for smallpox well before Pasteur, because it was effective before Pasteur, to reduce the consequences of this fatal disease!
Vaccination, which is not a theory, but a reality observed on patients before Pasteur, has made it possible to suppress smallpox on earth, to the point that one no longer vaccinates.

Vaccination is based on the observation that for certain diseases, one does not become sick again after having had it, (because our immune system has found and retains the means to defend itself) and thus with an attenuated form one learns to defend oneself.
So she even works without a vaccine, which allowed some of our ancestors to survive in the worst epidemics, because they were fortunate enough to receive by chance an attenuated form of the disease (virus or microbes of the hours or day in the air ), which vaccinated them spontaneously.

janic affirms according to his sentimental impulses, taking as truths distorted affirmations or fuzzy certainties.

For Pasteur, in 1861 (precise date that Janic forgets, because Janic is still in the dark, imprecise)
I did not say that he knew Semmelweis personally, but that his method was known in Europe and America and it is unlikely (not impossible) that he ignored it.

janic in this blur, didn't realize that Pastor in 1861 had not yet studied human diseases, but was still fermenting and scientifically refuting (with great care) the fashionable theory of spontaneous generation, (dear to janic in the form of creationism), theory much older than homeopathy (thousands of years) et justified by the absence of a microscope, which gave an impression of generation from nothing !!
The microscope dear to Pasteur, made it possible to see and understand.
Medicine at the time refused, clinging to a very old theory, much more than homeopathy, simplistic, almost obvious !!
So the seniority and the use by a very large number of doctors of old methods, like homeopathy (and spontaneous generation, it criminal, by the lack of hygiene) does not prove their validity !!!
So homeopathy without a molecule, or scientific justification, is not better than the placebo effect, proof that belief in our brain, helps to heal, but is not enough for serious cases.

Acupuncture has a much better scientific proof, especially about pain.

Finally, this need for a placebo drug by patients, even for small problems that do not need medication, explains the prescription of drugs in excess (as useless, absurd and dangerous painkillers, given automatically by doctors, that I refused a lot of times, with my wife, a dangerous absurdity for pregnant woman) explains their prescription of placebo homeopathy instead !!!
Moreover, it is scientifically proven, that the placebo works, even if the patient knows that the pilulle is bogus containing nothing!
This is the case with homeopathy, since the patient has heard that there is nothing after the dilutions!

But the bases of homeopathy are without any scientific basis, close to a belief without solid proof in general principles, is as aberrant as the spontaneous generation before 1861, medical doctrine of the time more than a thousand years old, taught , which does not prove its validity.

It owes its persistence only to the absence of molecule, therefore without danger, (absurd to believe in a medical effect) and to the placebo effect, thanks to our brain which controls our immune system by full of hormones.

Finally science is a long process of precise experiments, of analysis, of tests, of cross-checking, of numerous precise facts, of critics analyzed, of care to avoid doctrines and dogmatic certainties, and therefore not at all the method of janic , quite dogmatic, of certain belief, based on peremptory, general, vague, imprecise statements.
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by Obamot » 03/12/11, 14:43

... in any event, "beliefs" could not be called false absurdity since they belong to the private sphere (even if you admitted that it is a relatively recent way of apprehending religious phenomena) .

And there you surprise me when you defend vaccination, what would you say, if I said while speaking for you: that there is little you admitted that "The viruses were relatively harmless on a subject with a good immune response!"

That there should be a contradiction when you say that "It works even without a vaccine" [...] "Since our ancestors survived".

It's good that the vaccines weaken the species ... We could even say that new diseases would not have appeared, if some individuals had died in previously weakened lines, which would not have caused us today a massacre death (AIDS and other progressive outbreaks of autoimmune diseases ... for example ...) since only resistant subjects would have survived ... and therefore would not have passed from life to death for more benign conditions (unfortunately for the others, but this is the real law of natural selection, in which man must eventually not interfere too much ...)

In short, by not speaking "in place of one's interlocutors", one would not stigmatize the debate on people ...

As for my personal opinion on the subject, I believe that the vaccine is a good thing, but it should be strictly regulated so as to give it only to those who are at risk. By taking care not to carry out planetary campaigns, profitable in priority to the vaccine production sectors ... But relatively disastrous for segments of the population which they can decimate a posteriori ...
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by Janic » 03/12/11, 15:58

good evening obamot
As for my personal opinion on the subject, I believe that the vaccine is a good thing, but it should be strictly regulated so as to give it only to those who are at risk.
ideally that's what it should be, but unfortunately it doesn't stick for two reasons:
1) according to the law, a vaccination can only be carried out on a person who is not in a fragile situation (the exact formula should be found in the texts of laws) therefore not vaccinable.
2) vaccination on a person at risk runs the risk of being poorly tolerated and therefore of having more serious side effects than the disease itself (see the very long list of adverse effects on the ALIS website) It's the snake biting its tail!
and if the vaccine were such a good thing the growing distrust of the general public would not be justified. Again, we must compare figures that speak better than a theoretical point of view.
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by bamboo » 03/12/11, 17:01

dedeleco wrote:So homeopathy without a molecule, or scientific justification, is not better than the placebo effect, proof that belief in our brain, helps to heal, but is not enough for serious cases.

This is completely false: studies have shown that homeopathy has an effect far superior to the placebo effect.

In addition, homeopathy is much cheaper than the drugs prescribed by allopaths, so why deprive yourself !?
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dedeleco
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by dedeleco » 03/12/11, 17:04

You are not looking at the crucial points and raise points which require clear clarification:
"beliefs" could not be called false absurdity since they belong to the private sphere (even if you admitted that this is a relatively recent way of understanding religious phenomena)

the pre-scientific belief in the spontaneous generation (obvious without a microscope) of the years before 1861 to 1880, was an absurdity, false, criminal, having made millions of deaths in fact, without hygiene !! (how much, between 1840 date of the discovery by Semmelweiss and 1880, beginning of the real Pasteurism ???)
So this type of absurd belief with criminal consequences does not come under "the private sphere" but a crime against humanity, at the same rank as the belief in the superiority of the Aryan race, or the belief of religious extremists of all stripes. and not only Islamists !!
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