The evolution of biological species and chance ...

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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 01/02/18, 13:17

And bingo! You see that you privilege automatically the hypothesis of evolution
Unless it is completely c ... creationist, the notion of evolution is obvious, the contemporary era is also the most tangible proof, everything changes more quickly.
Unless it is evolutionist, the notion of evolution mixes with adaptation as regards the animal world as vegetable, that is to say, of the LIVING. But I said it and re-re-repeated, there is no dispute about evolutionism since, I re-re-repeat, a mechanical system (for example) is the permanent object of evolution which is not intrinsicbut external by the will, the imagination of its designers (creators) as shown by computer science, aviation, marine, automobile and all their gadgets added. So yes: evolution is an indisputable fact BY an external intervention called intelligent. (Regardless of a cranial volume! : Cheesy: )
In the Eastern tradition, the notion of impermanence, which has largely been developed over the last years, the fixism to which you cling is a bias of analysis linked to our subjective understanding of reality.
You take your fantasies for reality. I am a warm supporter of impermanence both philosophically and spiritually. My past profession is a typical example since it consisted in creating new techniques to develop industrial products. Now if the profession of creating solutions to a need is fixism: where is the logic of this discourse?
What is distressing what soon create genetically modified humans, average AIs
it is only the ineluctable consequence of the disappearance of spiritual values ​​which served (through the intermediary of "religions") to limit the extravagances of the imagination without ethical conscience (but inventions are never ethical!)

See above ! I point out to you that you use, rightly, the notion of create !
(1) To impute this complexity to God is also to push the problem further, as Siddhartha Gautama said: if God creates the world, who creates God?
Totally agree with him. It is not a question of imputing this complexity to a deity invented by humans. I repeat, it is the information outside the cosmological limit that is the cause (that some call god if it suits them like that!) Now who created the information that created the world around us ? We go around in circles because no one really knows what these different concepts cover. So do not try to find the right answer!
But Siddhartha Gautama lived (if he existed?) 26 / 27 century ago before us and therefore did not have all the current techniques and knowledge on evolutionism, such as creationism or the intervention of ET or n matter what else
Buddha's Story: Prince Siddhartha Gautama
chua-phuoc-binh.com/histoiredubouddha/histoiredubouddhapage1.html
THE BIRTH OF PRINCE SIDDHARTHA GAUTAMA The story of the birth of the future Buddha is miraculous. One night Queen Maya dreamed that a six-horned elephant carrying a lotus flower in her trunk would enter her by the right side, at the same time a son was conceived. The Brahmans (religious) came and ...

It does not remind anything? 8)
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 01/02/18, 18:48

Janic wrote:Unless it is evolutionist, the notion of evolution mixes with adaptation as regards the animal world as vegetable, that is to say, of the LIVING. But I said it and re-re-repeated, there is no dispute about evolutionism since, I re-re-repeat, a mechanical system (for example) is the permanent object of evolution that is not intrinsic, but external by the will, the imagination of its designers (creators) as shown by computer science, aviation, marine, automobile and all their gadgets added. So yes: evolution is an indisputable fact by a so-called intelligent external intervention. (Regardless of a cranial volume!


This has been said 50 times: a car is a manufactured product (rather "mechanically invoiced" nowadays), while the whole of the living develops itself.
We can talk about human fabrication with transhumanism, but for the moment life develops itself in synergy with the totality.
We've never seen a car pushed by itself ...

Totally agree with him. It is not a question of imputing this complexity to a deity invented by humans. I repeat, it is the information outside the cosmological limit that is the cause (that some call god if it suits them like that!) Now who created the information that created the world around us ? We go around in circles because no one really knows what these different concepts cover.


That has nothing to do with the subject on the evolution of the species, I answer you here:
https://www.econologie.com/forums/sciences-et-technologies/le-temps-et-l-information-de-guillemenant-t13206-140.html?hilit=phillipe%20guillemenant
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 01/02/18, 20:35

It has been said 50 times: a car is a manufactured product (rather "mechanically-invoiced" nowadays), whereas all living things develop on their own.

This vision of the difference between the raw material that needs to be transformed to give a final product and the organic living, which is only this raw material already transformed, is only an approach distorted by a priori. Indeed, the living (you have repeated 50 times) has the composition of this same material, no longer raw (because unassimilable) for the animal world but transformed by the plant which too could reach this stage only from biological mechanisms already elaborated, etc ... Clearly, the extremely complex complex of the living is in interdependence where the least missing part determines the destruction of the product (this is what we call the animal disease like vegetable)
We can talk about human fabrication with transhumanism, but for the moment life develops itself in synergy with the totality.
We've never seen a car pushed by itself ...

It's just a question of language and comparison mode. The automatism more and more accentuated from raw material makes it possible to elaborate functional organs as for a large part of the biological medium (the human generally proceeds by imitation) the intelligence, which one notes with the organic beings , is replaced by computer more and more powerful and its miniaturization. Similarly the 3D printer construction allows a new appearance of manufacturing that looks in some ways (this is only technical) to cellular development that allows organic growth. The project of making organs from living cells is underway. But we are in the infancy of many techniques that tomorrow will manufacture complete organs, even complete individuals, what we still do not know.
But we still need equipment already alive We do not know anything about it because of the complexity of it, whatever the level of scientific knowledge.
Totally agree with him. It is not a question of imputing this complexity to a deity invented by humans. I repeat, it is the information outside the cosmological limit that is the cause (that some call god if it suits them like that!) Now who created the information that created the world around us ? We go around in circles because no one really knows what these different concepts cover.

That has nothing to do with the subject on the evolution of the species, I answer you here:
science-and-technology / the time-and-the-information-to-guillemenant-t13206-140.html? Hilit = phillipe% 20guillemenant

I'm not a fan of Guillemant or Roddier who serves you as gurus.
So I only took this formula as a way of expressing an idea with other words than those usually used. Why ? Because we are limited by the known universe, of which we are part, and everything that "leaves" is not accessible to us, even by the imagination and wanting to reason about our limited concepts, it is vain and useless. What is beyond this space time, beyond a cosmological horizon and other abstract concepts on any beyond, it is only the product of our imagination (limited to our cerebral possibilities). However, this hypothesis of an afterlife serves to give meaning to the believer as to the unbeliever who believes in a certain form of science, yet as ignorant as the one who hopes in this beyond ...!
So if you do not know, what is pointless, apart from masturbating the neurons, which can be a pleasant hobby, let us stay on the topic of chance in the discourse of evolution, but also and above all demonstrate that the living can appear raw material, which is not yet proven to date.

To make an analogy, the intelligence is like a mountaineer trying to climb a mountain (problem), the wave function of the Universe, the Absolute, the Universe in Power (takes the term you like most ) it is the mountaineer AND the mountain ...
That's philosophy, not science, but it's yours!
Otherwise, except that your discourse makes the object and the subject a whole, whereas in non-evolutionary conception, the two are separated: on one side of the raw mineral matter, on the other side of the living organic matter . The mountain has no intelligence of its own, the climber yes! Even by analogy! But if you consider the climber as what is popularly called god, any god, you want, like Buddhist philosophy, to make a whole, producer and product mixed to be one, which is opposed to the concept who wants the sculptor to be not the stone of which he will make a work, the painter of the same and more generally any designer, creator of a work. The work becomes in itself the proof of the existence of its author.
In fact, the two concepts being antithetical, the solution will not be there.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 01/02/18, 21:18

Janic wrote:I'm not a fan of Guillemant or Roddier who serves you as gurus.


Guru come from Sanskrit which means Master, spiritual guide.
If I find that the synthesis works of François Roddier are particularly stimulating and avant-garde I do not consider it as my master! : Lol:
As for Philippe Guillemant, I particularly approve of his theory of flexible space time but much less his idealistic extrapolations ...

It's just a question of language and comparison mode. The automatism more and more accentuated (...)


Not a car is a car and a tree a tree ... a tree grows by itself, not a car point.

Otherwise, except that your discourse makes the object and the subject a whole, whereas in non-evolutionary conception, the two are separated: on one side of the raw mineral matter, on the other side of the living organic matter .


You defend the notion of dualism, just like creationism, it is a distorted vision resulting from our mode of subjective understanding.
The living needs the non-living because it is the product, the difference between the two are the flow of information that crosses them.
Can we imagine life on earth without the sun?

The mountain has no intelligence of its own, the climber yes! Even by analogy! But if you consider the climber as what is popularly called god, any god, you want, like Buddhist philosophy, to make a whole, producer and product mixed to become one,


No need to tire yourself out talking about "information outside space-time", your remarks are imbued with creationism ...
But I notice that you can not answer on the bottom ...

which is opposed to the concept that the sculptor is not the stone of which he will make a work, the painter of the same and more generally any designer, creator of a work. The work becomes in itself the proof of the existence of its author.
In fact, the two concepts being antithetical, the solution will not be there.


Whether you like it or not the Universe is a totality, all that exists inside it can not be considered as an entity with independent existence.
The physics experiments prove it very well, an object isolated from external influences remains in a quantum state of superposition of state, it is only during the measurement that the state is reduced to a corpuscle of matter.
If a chair is a chair it is because it is determined by a set of physical factors resulting from the interactions of our universe.
By extrapolating, if one could isolate a chair from the influences of its physical environment, it would fall into an overlay of state.
Physicists try to demonstrate this type of experiment with larger and larger objects (1).


(1) Currently the biggest objects are the size of a fullerene.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuller%C3%A8ne
Interference of molecules filmed in real time
For the first time, physicists recorded in real time quantum interference patterns created by organic molecules containing up to 114 atoms!

http://www.pourlascience.fr/ewb_pages/a/actu-des-interferences-de-molecules-filmees-en-temps-reel-29639.php
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by izentrop » 02/02/18, 09:16

Hello,
You have discussed much about determinism, but it is a fact that man no longer evolves because he is no longer confronted with the natural selection of survival, that he lives more and more in a virtual world fiction.
The next extinction is inexorably approaching, but the earth will recover ... (the video starts at 1 h36 normally)


Since man's need for conquest and his difficulty of sharing is in his genes, the only way to avoid a catastrophe is through scientific research and attention to his results rather than his leaders.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 02/02/18, 09:38

If I find that François Roddier's work is particularly stimulating and avant-garde, I do not consider him as my master!
good for you, me it does not stimulate me at all, but to everyone his thing!
It is rare for individuals to refer to a single character except when he is the initiator of an idea.
As for Philippe Guillemant, I particularly approve his theory of flexible space time but much less his idealistic extrapolations ...
to extrapolate your Roddier is not exempt
It's just a question of language and comparison mode. The automatism more and more accentuated (...)
Not a car is a car and a tree a tree ... a tree grows by itself, not a car point.
And yet you are afraid of transhumanism and development (limitless?) Of AI! But a pebble is a pebble and the earth of the earth with which cars will be made and this pebble does not appear anywhere the smallest living plot ... except to invoke a miraculous apparition
Otherwise, except that your discourse makes the object and the subject a whole, whereas in non-evolutionary conception, the two are separated: on one side of the raw mineral matter, on the other side of the living organic matter .
You defend the notion of dualism, just like creationism, it is a distorted vision resulting from our mode of subjective understanding.
This is your point of view and why not, as any personal point of view!
The living needs the non-living because it is the product, the difference between the two are the flow of information that crosses them.
Can we imagine life on earth without the sun?
Exactly ! The conditions that preside over life on earth are so peculiar that its appearance by chance is merely a sight of the mind: how do you say .... " it is a distorted vision resulting from our mode of subjective understanding. »
However, you are partially right in invoking the fact that the living needs the non-living to concretize this information. A sculptor can always imagine (the information) what could be his future statue which will remain only a simple sight of the spirit without the stone and tools which He will use, stone and tools that are not alive as is the sculptor. So duality obviously! But the living is not the product of the non-living as the sculptor is not the product of stone and tools.
The mountain has no intelligence of its own, the climber yes! Even by analogy! But if you consider the climber as what is popularly called god, any god, you want, like Buddhist philosophy, to make a whole, producer and product mixed to become one,
No need to tire yourself out talking about "information outside space-time", your remarks are imbued with creationism ...
It's obvious, just as your remarks are imbued with evolutionism! We turn arround!
But I notice that you can not answer on the bottom ...
You neither !
The unique question is to know if, by spontaneous generation, life could have appeared by chance, as by an intervention of a holy miracle-maker, on this ball.
which is opposed to the concept that the sculptor is not the stone of which he will make a work, the painter of the same and more generally any designer, creator of a work. The work becomes in itself the proof of the existence of its author.
In fact, the two concepts being antithetical, the solution will not be there.
Whether you like it or not the Universe is a totality, all that exists inside it can not be considered as an entity with independent existence.
it is not a question of personal will, but of finding that the work is not IN the creator, which anybody can see without engaging in pseudo intellectual or scientific abstractions.
If a chair is a chair it is because it is determined by a set of physical factors resulting from the interactions of our universe.
You have to say that to the carpenter who only has to wait for a "set of physical factors resulting from the interactions of our universe" to come together for this chair to create itself!
Physicists try to demonstrate this type of experiment with larger and larger objects (1).
With objects, the living is much more difficult to be manipulated!
NOTE: of not the!
For the first time, of physicists have recorded real-time quantum interference figures created by organic molecules containing up to 114 atoms!
http://www.pourlascience.fr/ewb_pages/a ... -29639.php
Watch out for the effects of ads that abound on the media.
Then yes ! CREATED by ORGANIC molecules isolated but in laboratory by acting on selected parameters that may not correspond to the world outside these labs. For the record, Miller has succeeded in reproducing in the lab, some conditions conducive to the formation of amino acids, even others do not exist, and then it stopped there since giving no information on the living itself.
Our handymen in chemistry have also managed to reproduce synthetic products supposed to be identical to living products and this has only caused disorders in the human machine, among others, which must then seek to repair with other products of synthesis, which create other disorders, and that without end to the detriment of the health of the populations and therefore of the life itself! (the multitude of the small pills qu'empur the little old)
Ecology is a kind of prophetism, non-religious, which consists in warning against the dangerous fantasies of our heads of bulbs and which lead to what we see, a little late, as endangering the planet and the life she hosts.
So, interesting as it is, it does not advance a hair the schmilblick on life itself!
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 02/02/18, 10:50

izentrop wrote:Hello,
You have discussed much about determinism, but it is a fact that man no longer evolves because he is no longer confronted with the natural selection of survival, that he lives more and more in a virtual world fiction.


Yes it is a good remark, with the development of the technique the human being started a phase of self-domestication, in particular with the agriculture and the breeding, the construction of a habitat, the wearing of clothes etc. ...
Our body no longer has to evolve with respect to our environment, since we have adapted our environment to ourselves.
However this stabilization is only temporary, because the degradation of the living conditions in the biosphere will push us towards abrupt adaptations to which the body does not have the possibility to answer.
Transhumanism appears for certain as a response to such changes, without understanding that it is a determinism stemming from cultural evolution.

Janic wrote:But a pebble is a pebble and the earth of the earth with which cars will be made and this pebble does not appear anywhere the smallest living plot ... except to invoke a miraculous apparition


As I have already mentioned, the difference between the living and the non-living is the degree of complexity, and therefore the level of information found in a structure.
It is not absurd to think that one day we will be able to create non-biological life forms.

The conditions that preside over life on earth are so particular that its appearance by chance is only a simple view of the mind:


Just because you do not know what chance is: An event whose appearance can not be explained, and which can not be foreseen.
The term of chance covers more a personal belief than a physical reality.
By the term chance we call events that escape our predictive capabilities.
However, an in-depth study shows that the indeterminacy of events does not answer at all to what we think classically.
The study of statistics shows that the distribution of events over time is not linear as one might think (reasoning bias), but appears in a package, this is what we call the law of rare events ou Poisson's law *, we can see the recursion of the strangest, what popularly called "the law of series".

I do not address the issue of synchronicity yet studied by scientists (like the Nobel physics Wolfgang Pauli) lack of consensus ... but there are events that challenge all probabilities!


You have to say that to the carpenter who only has to wait for a "set of physical factors resulting from the interactions of our universe" to come together for this chair to create itself!


It is not me who compares cars and trees! : Lol: : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:



* Law of Fish name Simeon Denis Poisson mathematician, geometer and French physicist.
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 02/02/18, 11:41

janic wrote: But a pebble is a pebble and the earth of the earth with which cars will be made and of this pebble does not appear anywhere the least living part ... except to invoke a miraculous apparition
As I have already mentioned, the difference between the living and the non-living is the degree of complexity, and therefore the level of information found in a structure.
It is not absurd to think that one day we will be able to create non-biological life forms.
We can obviously assume anything ... preferably! For the moment, life and bio (which are French and Greek synonyms) are indissociable.
The conditions which preside over life on earth are so peculiar that its appearance by chance is merely a sight of the mind:
Simply because you do not know what chance is: an event whose appearance can not be explained, and which can not be predicted.
The term of chance covers more a personal belief than a physical reality.
There is an important difference between the two actually, but I'm only talking about the first one and this subject has already been explored and that in a simpler way we can define as follows: " We do not know anything ! What slab! Nib of nib! »
I do not address the issue of synchronicity yet studied by scientists (like the Nobel physics Wolfgang Pauli) lack of consensus ... but there are events that challenge all probabilities!
Like life? Indeed, all the probabilities envisaged will always be underestimated with respect to the complexity of life.
You have to say that to the carpenter who only has to wait for a "set of physical factors resulting from the interactions of our universe" to come together for this chair to create itself!
It is not me who compares cars and trees!
I do not compare the living with inert matter, all my speech says the opposite, because it is not me who sees the life out of this inert matter (like a car) by self organization (which would give a tree) which is unprovable in the current state of our knowledge.
"Engineering is sometimes about knowing when to stop" Charles De Gaulle.
Like what he was not so great! «From Dunkirk to Tamanrasset France to the French»
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by sen-no-sen » 02/02/18, 12:08

No valid argument as usual! : roll:
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Re: The evolution of biological species and chance ...




by Janic » 02/02/18, 12:49

No valid argument as usual!
no evidence of the initial self-organization of life!
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