What a fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!

Humanitarian catastrophes (including resource wars and conflicts), natural, climate and industrial (except nuclear or oil forum fossil and nuclear energy). Pollution of the sea and oceans.
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Exnihiloest
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Exnihiloest » 26/05/17, 21:28

Ahmed wrote:"Progress" as a concept of propaganda invented in the XNUMXth century is obviously positive, but in substance and in reality this word is completely neutral and its meaning depends only on the context in which it is used: thus, in its negative uses , we can talk about the progress of the epidemic, erosion, a fire ...

"its meaning depends only on the context in which it is used": it seems to me that I have clarified this context, so why go back to generalities unrelated to the subject ?! Because noting an improvement in certain aspects of life today compared to those of the past is not ecologically correct?
As for "concept of propaganda", there we fall into conspiracy theories. I see that we are no longer bound by any plausibility, so we can also say that environmentalism is a "concept of propaganda".
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Ahmed » 26/05/17, 22:55

Why invoke a conspiracy theory where there is only a well-dated ideological social construction, the successive stages of which it is easy to follow? That what resulted from it led to improvements, like setbacks in other areas, was not what I wanted to point out.
Environmentalism would rather be a counter propaganda ... but I do not find it abnormal to see in one position or the other the expression of different subjectivities: useless, therefore, to assume the monopoly of rationality and launch anathemas towards obscurantisms which have the merit of not agreeing with the meaning and content of this rationality there.
Political ecology is indeed not a science and, logically, should be articulated around anticapitalism (and not altercapitalism), which does not mean that it would suppose a symmetrically antagonistic ideology, but an orientation , to be defined, towards another path. It is however probable, although not desirable, that capitalism, already well achieved, will not self-destruct of itself, leaving room for an even more fatal chaos (but of which it will be the cause) ...
I understand well, if I wear your glasses, that anticapitalism is a sectarian position, while the reverse is simple pragmatism or a certain objective neutrality ... : Wink:
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Christophe » 27/05/17, 13:43

Exnihiloest wrote:
It does not prevent the safeguarding of the climate (or rather of its stability) is closely linked to our privileged conditions ... I say that I say nothing ... : Mrgreen:

This is where we diverge. Man is neither responsible for the climate nor has the means to change it.
It is good to believe that man is guilty but that he can redeem himself. It reminds me of an old story. This recycling is very ecological after all. 8)


It stinks of climate skepticism this answer ... :| :|

You are free to believe what you want ... for my part I am firmly convinced that man has a share of responsibility in climate change ... if it is not a total responsibility!
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Ahmed » 27/05/17, 15:11

A real "progress" against pollution has consisted in relocating it massively: the various environmental standards are contemporaneous with deindustrialisation. Another of the effects of these standards on the industries that remained in place was to promote the concentration of companies, and this aspect is not insignificant in terms of the genesis of these laws.
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Exnihiloest » 27/05/17, 18:05

Ahmed wrote:A real "progress" against pollution has consisted in relocating it massively: the various environmental standards are contemporaneous with deindustrialisation. Another of the effects of these standards on the industries that remained in place was to promote the concentration of companies, and this aspect is not insignificant in terms of the genesis of these laws.

And are people happier than in the 60s, when they were at full employment, when they used household appliances, when they watched television bringing discoveries to people even the most distant from cultural resources, when everything seemed possible and certainly not "sustainable", but also time of nuclear tests on the surface, time of air in large cities more polluted than today, time of roads and accident-prone speeds, time of the Cold War?
I doubt.
As you said, progress is "subjective", and therefore it is a consensual idea that must be found when considering general measures that will impact everyone. Keeping in mind that ecology is completely reductive, it is quite insufficient to hope for a better feeling of life, and it is even more so if the measures taken must be done to the detriment of other elements of life , not ecological but contributing to the feeling of well-being. Ecology is one of the elements, certainly important, to take into account in political action, but it is only one element among others, not the panacea.
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Exnihiloest » 27/05/17, 18:17

Christophe wrote:
Exnihiloest wrote:
It does not prevent the safeguarding of the climate (or rather of its stability) is closely linked to our privileged conditions ... I say that I say nothing ... : Mrgreen:

This is where we diverge. Man is neither responsible for the climate nor has the means to change it.
It is good to believe that man is guilty but that he can redeem himself. It reminds me of an old story. This recycling is very ecological after all. 8)


It stinks of climate skepticism this answer ... :| :|

You are free to believe what you want ... for my part I am firmly convinced that man has a share of responsibility in climate change ... if it is not a total responsibility!


What an olfactory finesse! : Cheesy:

"Puer" seems to me a rude term, besides being iniquitous, when it is only a question of opposing his own conviction to that of others.

You are free to believe what you want ... for my part I am deeply convinced that man has a negligible share of responsibility in climate change, if it is not totally zero, and I base myself to say it on the lack of scientific evidence proving it, quantification in support, and on the fact that the anthropogenic part of CO2 is negligible compared to that natural.
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Janic » 27/05/17, 18:32

coincidentally, I just watched a documentary on France 5 "land under the influence". In particular seen and analyzed from the data provided by satellites and unfortunately humanity tends to supplement the climate through its behavior. Of course, it may not be totally responsible for climate problems, but it makes them seriously worse.
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Forhorse » 27/05/17, 20:25

Exnihiloest wrote:For my part, I am firmly convinced that man has a negligible share of responsibility in climate change, if it is not completely zero, and I base myself on saying this on the absence of scientific proof proving it, quantification to support, and on the fact that the anthropogenic share of CO2 is negligible compared to that natural.


The more I read you, the more I have the impression that you are a lobbyist in the pay of a large group (industrial / political / other ..?) Whose mission is to destabilize this forum or in any case its visitors who do not yet have a clear opinion on ecology.
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Janic » 27/05/17, 20:43

The more I read you, the more I have the impression that you are a lobbyist in the pay of a large group (industrial / political / other ..?) Whose mission is to destabilize this forum or in any case its visitors who do not yet have a clear opinion on ecology.
ah well then! no one had noticed it so far! : roll:
but all the better the more it gets stuck and the more this discourse of lobbyists loses credibility. : Evil:
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Re: What fantastic progress against pollution, since 200 years!




by Ahmed » 28/05/17, 08:52

Janic, you write:
While it may not be fully responsible for climate problems, it does make them worse.

No one has ever thought that human influence was the only cause, but only that it succeeded in superimposing on natural variations so that it upset a balance (fluctuating) by modifying a major climatic factor. It is easy to see that a small difference in the concentration of a gas in the atmosphere can exert a powerful leverage effect, insofar as it plays a role in the earth's thermal balance. Less than a sudden warming, what is at stake is a significant increase in the intensity of climatic and meteorological events due to this increased supply of the thermodynamic machine.
My position is known, I remind it however: on the RC or DR, as one likes, I have no scientific certainty, I just consider that the negationism in the matter goes too in the direction of the "business as usual" to discredit the work of the IPCC (it is only to think of this poor blithe !). But, what appeals to me the most is that this threat must intervene in order for questions to arise about our operating modes, which, always in my opinion, reveals a profound ambiguity in the environmentalist approach (because we cannot unfortunately speak here of an ecological approach) which is only sensitive to what is likely to disturb an agreed vision of a certain prior comfort.
I believe that a judicious attitude would be to refrain from making judgments on a scientific debate which exceeds us, since we would all have to assume methodologically this climate change for reasons that have nothing to do with the climate.
Unfortunately, the crisis of capitalism, as a world system (if it were circumscribed [absurd assumption!], It would be negligible) implies an acceleration of the destruction of the conditions of life on earth, or to put it another way, a maximization of abstract value flows by energy dissipation ...
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