The 6 ith extinction

[Ahmed]

Open violence, as it is generally understood, has, of course, decreased overall within the human species, but another phenomenon of compensation (the same that is at work against other species and the biosphere ) operated in favor of a diffuse, but permanent, violence of social, economic and psychical nature. This results in numerous pathologies * and generalized malaise.
As for the opposition between altruism and selfishness, these notions actually exist to varying degrees in all social animals and their expression depends on the context: altruism tends to favor the survival of the group **, selfishness is more that of group of individuals more or less related to other competing outside groups.
According Pierre JouventinMan as a primate is instinctively inclined towards rather selfish behavior, but being neither biologically, but ecologically and ethically related to the wolf, he would have developed an altruism of a cultural nature, a memory of his long past as a hunter. big game band.

* The pathology can in this case be described as a healthy reaction but can not express itself against violence and which turns against the victim: the double penalty!
** And so close genes or, as today substitutes for genes: the homeland, religion or some belief that binds a group (supporter of a football club! ).

[sen-no-sen]

As for the opposition between altruism and selfishness, these notions actually exist to varying degrees in all social animals and their expression depends on the context: altruism tends to favor the survival of the group **, selfishness is more that of group of individuals more or less related to other competing outside groups.

Altruism and selfishness is the same thing but not on the same scale.
A human being is a cluster of billions of genes, to show egoism is in fact an altruism for its billions of sub units!
Likewise, defenders of "national preference" are supposedly altruistic towards their compatriots and selfish towards others, a matter of point of view.
We can extend this reflection to corporations, social classes, religions and minorities of all kinds etc..etc ...
Even a person engaged in humanitarian aid without borders would show some form of egoism towards non-human forms of life, because objectively human development is done to the detriment of others ...
Reconciling universal benevolence is therefore a big challenge!

For my part I defend a thesis pessimo-realistic: I consider that the craze for the animal cause as it develops via the movement vegan is in fact in line with sustainable development.
The coming contraction of the industrial economies of the first hours will lead to a decrease in our consumption of meat, the movement vegan seems to me to be a clever way of dressing this transformation, in the same way that the end of the black slave trade was dressed up in a humanist face in favor of a new economic model.
One could thus allow oneself to think that most of the advances with humanistic or altruistic characters are in fact a screen put in place a posteriori to hide the sad reality of the determinisms in games.
This can not be surprising because our brain functions like this: our self attributes itself to the accomplishment of acts that are in reality only an unconscious convergence of neurological processes.
History would then constitute, from this point of view, only a narration produced a posteriori and highlighting "human greatness" ...

[Ahmed]

Yes, it's very clear: I wrote my message a little hastily and your wording is much better. I allow myself to rectify a sentence:

** And so of genes close to or, as today, substitutes for genes (and which are the memes, psychic genes): the homeland, religion or any belief whatsoever that unites a group (supporters of a football club! ).

You write:

... most advances with humanistic or altruistic characters are actually screens put in place a posteriori, to hide the sad reality of the determinisms at stake.

It is about a narrative reconfiguration inscribed in an intelligible schema of what constitutes the ideal frame of a society: the story that it tells itself; unconsciously, as you specify later, but also often deliberately, because apologetic or simply justificative. On this subject, let us think of the victory of Liberty * over Nazism: things are far less simple than this flattering utterance, and in order to overcome the Axis forces it was necessary to resort to the same means. , increased. Admittedly, Nazism was defeated, but much of what had been wanted Hitler, too fast and too brutally, ended up extending his grip on the world so sneakily that it no longer presents itself as an identifiable adversary clearly and directly.
You write:

For my part, I defend a pessimo-realistic thesis: I consider that the craze for the animal cause as it develops via the vegan movement is actually in line with sustainable development.

I understand your point of view, but given the plurality of opinions on a multitude of subjects, inevitably there will always be certain movements that can be challenged in their defending body and in good faith. Instrumentalisation is always possible, whatever you do. Exnihiloest claimed that one was responsible for the ideas propagated, whatever the later use is made of it: if he was right (what God forbid! ), this would ipso facto prohibit any form of expression ...

* Term that elegantly eludes the geopolitical background ...

[Janic]

Hello

For my part I defend a pessimo-realistic thesis: I consider that the craze for the animal cause as it develops via the vegan movement is actually in line with sustainable development.

In part only! For exchanging on their forums with these vegans, we can realize that apart from a real awareness, and therefore to seek to concretize this awareness in their life, we realize that they mainly offer a kind of idealization and therefore belonging to another sort of "elite" confronted with a form of obscurantism among those with whom they shared this obscurantism a short time ago. (the most proselytes are the new converts as usual)
This is not specific because we find this behavior in all those who make a discovery that can, and sometimes will, upset their lives.

The coming contraction of the industrial countries' economies in the first hours will lead to a decrease in our consumption of meat,

I do not think it is linked, at least exclusively, to the industrial economy. Already this consumption is related to two main factors that are the social progression and the financial means that it grants and on the other hand to the exponential explosion of humanity. But each, separately, is not enough to lead to what inevitably awaits us, except consecutively to a collapse of industry for example, and its return to a previous misery, or a collapse of the world population by n any process like a total war, a famine, any pathology (the cancers being a little too slow to reach there!)

the vegan movement seems to me to be a clever way of dressing this transformation, in the same way that the end of the black slave trade was dressed up in a humanist face in favor of a new economic model.

It is possible, but that would imply a will external to the movement itself, which I did not perceive in any obvious way in any case. I think more of a real awareness, even with clumsiness, individual and spreading, not as an ideal of life (on this subject there would be much to say) but rather as a raz the bowl of a society having mirrored, with the larks we are, a brilliant future precisely.
lark mirror (Figuré) Attractive but misleading thing.
We find the same approach (sometimes in the same but not always) to a holistic medicine more humanistic, such as H, alternative medicine, towards a healthier food or organic (including the VG), etc ... But this does not represent and will still represent only a minority in the world because in the face there are indeed big industrial interests, but also and atavism, the so-called ancestral culture (generally overestimated), but also and especially the fact that the companies said in development courses also have the desire (and not the need) to show their access to a higher social level and thus to emphasize this recent state through a demonstration of its financial potential and which, according to Western models essentially, consists of to do like the richest, the parvenus, who also went through this phase of imitation of the other haves who were mainly with the nobles, the bourgeois, sufficiently well off for offer many meat dishes.
So even if our Western societies became VG and even vegan, that would hardly change the situation at the global level.

* The pathology can in this case be described as a healthy reaction but can not express itself against violence and which turns against the victim: the double penalty!

very well seen! All pathologies are reactions against oneself, the individual is sick of his being, that is to say his choices, his thoughts, his actions, misdirected.

** And so close genes or, as today substitutes for genes: the homeland, religion or some belief that binds a group (supporter of a football club! ).

attention danger, football is more important than all the rest!

[Ahmed]

Janic, you write:

I do not think it is linked, at least exclusively, to the industrial economy. Already this consumption is related to two main factors that are the social progression and the financial means that it grants and on the other hand to the exponential explosion of humanity.

This sentence is contradictory: both demographic growth and temporary advances in living standards stem from the industrial economy and will therefore necessarily fluctuate with it ...
Economic exponentialism favors the most expensive solutions to maximize profits and energy dissipation. A halt to this development would signify the return / resort to more reasonable practices, by the force of things *.

* So "reasonable" is here only a figure of speech and must be put between quotation marks since only determinisms will have the capacity of a general modification of our behaviors. What is characteristic of man is this extraordinary ability to imagine problems for which he does not have the solution ...

[sen-no-sen]

As can be seen in the graph, meat consumption is highest in France to 1998.
This year would it have symbolized an awareness of the animal condition?
In fact not really, the consumption of mammal meat to decline due to two factors: the increase in prices, but also because of the health crisis of mad cow (1986 / 2000), the two phenomenon being related.
Poultry consumption remains on the rise ...

[Janic]

As can be seen in the graph, meat consumption is highest in France to 1998.
This year would it have symbolized an awareness of the animal condition?
In fact not really, the consumption of mammal meat to decline due to two factors: the increase in prices, but also because of the health crisis of mad cow (1986 / 2000), the two phenomenon being related.
Poultry consumption remains on the rise ...

Absolutely! But concerning France in particular.
But the consumption of animals is a global problem where the phenomenon is the opposite. The so-called developing countries increase their consumption, certainly by improving their financial means (as low as they are) but also and above all because it represents a form of social accession where households will sacrifice certain food items more useful to advantage of this model especially Western (the American dream). This is seen by the decline in prices and quality on fruits and vegetables (by supermarkets) to allow homes to buy this social symbol.

What it does not seem to grasp is that the (relative) decrease of violence during the XNIXXème century is directly correlated to the increase of this same violence towards the biosphere, it is about a transfer.

Indeed, the individual constantly makes transfers when he can not (for social reasons governed by the laws) act directly by violence. From where the circus games, (kind foot), the bullfights, the hunt where the individual empties his too full of aggressiveness on others. But this is also the case for slaughterhouses where this violence can no longer be seen in broad daylight for various reasons raised by opponents of any form of killing.

The Chinese and others, burn the effigy of their "leaders" to free themselves from their overflow and so in order to return "in peace" to their slave labor.
So this extinction is directly dependent on population growth, much more than because of the industrialization of our affluent societies which are not representative of the societies of this world. So the livestock will have to devote more than 70% of agricultural land for animal feed by 2050 (that's tomorrow) and so where will they find the land to allow them if not by shaving some additional forests where by drawing in agricultural land for human food use. It's a vicious circle!

[dede2002]

...

Dédé2002, you write:

Moreover, the "technological machine" which also presents itself as a replacement for the replacement, will also have difficulty surviving on its own.

From a current point of view, certainly, but the artificialisation dynamics encourages to think that a reversal would be in the logic underlying the destruction of the alive one and would lead to an autonomization of the machines inside of a techno-mechanical world * from which the human species, temporary vector, become useless, would disappear in its turn.

* A technosphere, to use, I think, the terminology of Sen-no-sen.

The "technosphere" that you describe will probably also be a temporary vector ... But we will not be there to see it.

[dede2002]

But the "replacement" could not survive alone, without the other species ...

Moreover, the "technological machine" which also presents itself as a replacement for the replacement, will also have difficulty surviving on its own.

Regarding ash, the current recommendations are not to kill the sick trees, in the hope that some will develop resistance and can transmit it to their descendants.

Concerning our species, composed mainly of memetically modified organisms, the current recommendations are of (not) especially (not) to cut the rebellious individuals, in the idea that some will develop a resistance and will be able to transmit it to their descent ...

[Ahmed]

Janic, you write:

So, this extinction is directly dependent on population growth, much more than because of the industrialization of our affluent societies which are not representative of the societies of this world.

Of course, I am not unaware of the factor that memetic rivalry represents, but it could not be expressed without the industrialization of agriculture, which unfolds as a logical continuation of conventional industry. This form of industrialization can lower production costs until they coincide with the significant rise in purchasing power in these new countries eager to copy the dominant Western model.