The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives

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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by pedrodelavega » 11/07/19, 19:04

Janic wrote:Hence the example which shows that we cannot compare aviation and marine technologies as their respective criteria are so far apart.
The 2 are used to move, we can compare performance: speed, consumption, autonomy, pollution, etc ...

In the medical field, we can assess the effectiveness of different methods of care. Until these have been evaluated against placebo, we cannot know if they are effective.

Janic wrote:there at least they do not pretend by stating clearly that BP wants to get rid of any competition as weak as it is,
It was not big pharma that requested the reimbursement. The pharmaceutical industries, Boiron, Lehning and Weleda, have argued against delisting.
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Janic » 12/07/19, 08:10

janic wrote: Hence the example which shows that we cannot compare aviation and marine technologies as their respective criteria are so distant.
The 2 are used to move, we can compare performance: speed, consumption, autonomy, pollution, etc ...
Absolutely ! But we can only compare performance IN ONE SAME AREA, which cannot be compared to that of another area without falling into ridicule. So that the means used in A are valid for them, nobody disputes it, but in no way with other modes of care like H and other alternative medicines.
In the medical field, we can assess the effectiveness of different methods of care.
Always exact as we can assess the maneuverability of an airplane in flight which uses tools which are not the same as those used in the marine despite certain common elements such as engines, electrical equipment, propellers, rudders. So the protocols used in one specialty are not applicable to others. Now the A wants to apply SES protocols to everything else.
Until these have been evaluated against placebo, we cannot know if they are effective.
And how do you rate hypnosis, osteopathy, herbal medicine and others at TES placebos? Effectiveness is ONLY measured on patients by comparison between before and after a treatment (which A itself does in phase IV) and therefore without placebos.
janic wrote: there at least they don't pretend by stating clearly that BP wants to get rid of any competition as weak as it is,
It was not big pharma that requested the reimbursement.
Effectively ! It's not directly the case and the reimbursement it is only a tree to hide the forest and reimbursed or not, the users of the H will continue this practice as before it is it. While the reality is his desire to prevent the teaching of H for doctors and therefore classify this H as a practice of charlatans without qualifications. This is what BP, influencing politics, the universities that use their subsidies, tried to do, almost successfully, in America; but it was to forget that the Americans and especially the Americans do not let themselves be impressed by the powers of money and their impact on politics.
Last but not least, France is not the navel of the world and it is therefore worldwide that we must note the continuous growth of H as we see the same phenomenon with the growth of organic which are two important aspects of awareness of the populations for their true health.
Because whatever industrialists think, it is the mothers who are in control of their family's health and who measure and notice the difference between the supposed “placebo” of H and the chemical poisons that keep their kids dependent of this industry.
The pharmaceutical industries, Boiron, Lehning and Weleda, have argued against delisting.

And we start again at square one! What this acronym BP means is the BIG not the LITTLE pharma, otherwise it is to compare the term pharma only without taking into account its size (2000/1 report), but BP industries will especially not support their competitors when some of their products are reimbursed. [*]

https://journals.openedition.org/transc ... 4#tocto1n4
But the development of homeopathy in India is a much more complex phenomenon than we have been able to show here. It undoubtedly testifies to the dynamism of a health system in which biomedicine does not enjoy the monopoly of official recognition, and where other learned medicines have found their place. If India deserves its title of “world capital of homeopathy”, it is not only because of the number of practitioners, patients and training and care institutions listed. It is also in large part because the rise of homeopathy in India has been accompanied by a considerable development of homeopathic research proper thanks to significant support from the Indian State, support which has created a unique development situation for this medicine.

[*] it is interesting to see that Boiron uses the same job blackmail as his opponents and that local policies (pro or anti H) actually support it.
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Exnihiloest » 12/07/19, 20:54

Janic wrote:
I take this opportunity to express all my satisfaction with the total reimbursement of homeopathy.
For once a measure goes against ambient obscurantism, we are not going to sulk our pleasure.
as for obscurantism, you must feel targeted in the first place, then! : Evil:

Very well thought out, as usual. What insight! We have not seen better since the Catholic Church defending the heliocentrism of Galileo. But how do you manage to be in all the rearguard fights? A wish ? A priesthood? A well-paid profession? Need to clear your mind?
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Janic » 13/07/19, 08:12

Janic wrote:
I take this opportunity to express all my satisfaction with the total reimbursement of homeopathy.
For once a measure goes against ambient obscurantism, we are not going to sulk our pleasure.

as for obscurantism, you must feel targeted in the first place, then!
Very well thought out, as usual. What insight!
Which is obviously not your case, judging by the number of repeated stupidities that you write here.
We have not seen better since the Catholic Church defending the heliocentrism of Galileo. But how do you manage to be in all the rearguard fights? A wish ? A priesthood? A well-paid profession? Need to clear your mind?
It would be the case if I imitated you, which is better avoided at all costs. : Evil:
For the Catholic Church: why do you then persist, you and your friends, in reproducing what you seem to hate: totalitarianism of thought, claim to a "scientific" monopoly as it claims to hold a "spiritual" monopoly, chasing after heretics of political correctness, lies in series, use of the credulity of crowds / sheep to impose your very, very lucrative business, etc. :frown:
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Ahmed » 13/07/19, 10:28

The example of the trial of Galilee is counterproductive here, but shows a strong contempt for historical facts in favor of images of Epinal ...

What was criticized (with great moderation!) Galilee was not his opinion * concerning Copernican heliocentrism, but the fact of stubbornly teaching it as a truth while the demonstration of this theory had not yet been made. The Church would not have flinched if he had provisionally agreed to present this as a hypothesis or if he had succeeded in providing ad hoc evidence. The one who heard his two trials, the cardinal Bellarmine, was very interested in the sciences and did not see them as a threat to the Catholic faith. It is moreover not a theological quarrel as we often try to present things, but a manifestation of clerical power.

* It is funny to note that Galilee first opposed the heliocentric thesis before diametrically changing his mind ...
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by pedrodelavega » 13/07/19, 12:24

Janic wrote:Absolutely ! But we can only compare performance IN ONE SAME AREA,
We are in the same field.

Janic wrote:And how do you rate hypnosis, osteopathy, herbal medicine and others at TES placebos?

Osteopathy:
https://www.inserm.fr/sites/default/fil ... e_2012.pdf

Phytotherapy:
https://www.journal-therapie.org/articl ... HKama.html

Acupuncture:
https://lecerveau.mcgill.ca/flash/capsu ... leu08.html

Surgery:
https://www.science-et-vie.com/archives ... cace-22461

magnétiseur:
http://zetetique.canalblog.com/archives ... 22272.html

Vaccinations:
https://www.apmnews.com/freestory/0/267 ... -de-70-ans


Janic wrote:Effectiveness is ONLY measured on patients by comparison between before and after a treatment (which A itself does in phase IV) and therefore without placebos.
Effectiveness is ONLY measured by controlled clinical trials (Phase 2 and 3 in particular).

Janic wrote:Because whatever industrialists think, it is mothers who are in charge of their family's health
And the dads ??? : Lol: : Lol: : Lol: : Lol: : Lol:

Janic wrote:[*] it is interesting to see that Boiron uses the same blackmail to the job as his opponents
... Lack of arguments on efficiency ...
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Janic » 13/07/19, 12:30

* It is funny to note that Galileo first opposed the heliocentric thesis before diametrically changing his mind ...

Which made the same mistake as before when considering the sun as its center of the universe, even when it is only a question of the solar system. But each time we have to reduce these discourses to the technical means available. Newton had no more credit with his theory of gravitation which was not confirmed until later and it will always be so in all areas of knowledge.
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Janic » 13/07/19, 17:41

janic wrote: Absolutely! But we can only compare performance IN ONE SAME AREA,

We are in the same field.
We are in the field of health as aviation and the navy are in the field of mechanics related to displacement, without more, it is not for tomorrow that we will send an aircraft carrier in space.
janic wrote: And how do you assess hypnosis, osteopathy, herbal medicine and others at TES placebos?

Osteopathy:
https://www.inserm.fr/sites/default/fil ... e_2012.pdf
Apart from this one, which is rather interesting, but which you probably did not read until the end, the rest is rather hollow, of heartbreaking poverty!
janic wrote: Efficiency is ONLY measured on patients by comparison between before and after treatment (which A itself does in phase IV) and therefore without placebos.
Effectiveness is ONLY measured by controlled clinical trials (Phase 2 and 3 in particular).
The marketing authorization file has several parts, the structure of which is harmonized internationally to facilitate the compilation of data and their evaluation by the authorities:

The Quality section provides information on all aspects related to the industrial manufacturing of the drug: mainly the production of raw materials, the finished product, and the control procedures put in place to guarantee perfect reproducibility of the manufacturing process.
The Safety section compiles the studies conducted during preclinical development, that is to say the data on in vivo behavior in the non-human organism of the drug: mainly pharmacology, toxicology and pharmacokinetics.
The Efficacy part corresponds to all the results of clinical studies, carried out on healthy and / or sick humans, which make it possible to define the exact conditions for the use of the drug and to establish the benefit / risk ratio which must be favorable for commercial use.

Tests 2 and 3 are measures of toxicity, only phase 3 begins to measure their relative effectiveness, since it is only in phase IV that the effects (benefit / risk) will really be measured. whole (real guinea pigs!). Reread the protocols in question.

https://www.france-acouphenes.org/index ... -au-marche
Phase 2 (efficacy study)

Phase 2a takes place on healthy volunteers while phase 2b takes place on patients moderately affected by the target pathology of the candidate drug. The administration remains short duration and evaluation criteria are more pathophysiological than therapeutic. This phase 2 makes it possible to specify the knowledge of pharmacokinetics and the metabolism of the product, to identify its pharmacological properties, to establish the relationship curves between its concentration and the effects obtained, to specify the optimal dose for which the therapeutic effect is better the least side effects.

- Phase 3 (comparative test)

The efficacy and safety of the study drug are studied in a standard controlled clinical trial in comparison with a standard treatment recognized as effective in the disease in question or with a placebo, on a large group of patients (several hundreds to thousands of patients). If the drug successfully passes through these different phases, it is eligible for market access. To do this, you must then follow a whole administrative procedure.

janic wrote: Because whatever industry thinks, it's moms who are in charge of their family's health

And the dads ???
Very little ! but that included them as parents, of course! But I have rarely known, among all my work colleagues, the men dealing with this part there. It is enough to see the medical offices during vaccination sessions where the gentlemen are generally absent: Fear of bites, trauma of childhood?
janic wrote: [*] it is interesting to see that Boiron uses the same blackmail to the job as his opponents
... Lack of arguments on efficiency ...
When an industrialist uses blackmail for employment, it's never about efficiency industrial processes, but of its economic dimension only: Boiron or others. Don't you have better phony arguments? :?
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by pedrodelavega » 14/07/19, 22:44

Janic wrote:We are in the field of health as aviation and the navy are in the field of mechanics related to displacement, without more, it is not for tomorrow that we will send an aircraft carrier in space.
However, we can compare them. Example: I have to go as quickly as possible from France to the USA. What will be the fastest means of travel (plane or boat)?

Janic wrote:Apart from this one, which is rather interesting, but which you probably did not read until the end, the rest is rather hollow, of heartbreaking poverty!
That is to say?

Janic wrote:Tests 2 and 3 are measures of toxicity, only phase 3 begins to measure their relative effectiveness, since it is only in phase IV that the effects (benefit / risk) will really be measured. whole (real guinea pigs!). Reread the protocols in question.
Fact! It's very clear:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essai_clinique#Phases
Phase II
Phase II or pilot study consists in determining the optimal dose of the drug and its possible undesirable effects. Eligible population: sick (often less than 500). It is subdivided into two phases: phases IIa and IIb.
Phase IIa estimates theefficiency of the molecule on a limited number (from 100 to 200) of patients, whereas phase IIb determines the therapeutic dose of the molecule on a larger scale (from 100 to more than 300 patients).
Phase III
Phase III or "pivotal study" is the actual comparative study. She compares the treatment either to a placebo or to a reference treatment. The groups are large, often several thousand participants. These are extremely expensive programs [ref. necessary], the funding of which can be public or private (pharmaceutical companies). Given the financial stakes, certain ethical excesses have been denounced25.
Phase IV
Phase IV (or post-marketing) is the long-term follow-up of a treatment while the treatment is authorized on the market. It must allow screen for rare side effects or late complications26. This phase is the responsibility of the laboratories.

https://www.e-cancer.fr/Comprendre-prev ... -cliniques
The Phase II trials assess theeffectiveness of a treatment. They generally require the inclusion of 40 to 80 patients.
The Phase III trials are comparative tests. They make it possible to compare the new treatment with the treatment usually used, called "reference treatment" or "standard treatment". Two groups of patients are formed by lot (randomization), which makes it possible to form homogeneous and comparable groups (age , sex, characteristics of the disease, etc.): one will receive the standard treatment, the other the new treatment. It is therefore not the doctor who decides on the allocation of one or other of the treatments to his patient.
When the drug is marketed, it is still under close monitoring called pharmacovigilance. Thus, any unexpected abnormal sign due to its administration is the subject of a declaration to the French Agency for Sanitary Safety of Health Products (AFSSAPS). These are called Phase IV trials.

https://www.afm-telethon.fr/quatre-phas ... nique-1753
Phase II trial: does the product have a beneficial effect?
The phase II trial is conducted on a small, homogeneous group of volunteers with the targeted disease.
The objective is to study theproduct effectiveness, to increase knowledge of its tolerance and to seek the smallest effective dose to determine the optimal dose for the next phase trial (phase III).
Phase III trial: does the product have a therapeutic effect on a larger workforce?
The phase III trial is carried out on a large population of volunteers suffering from the targeted disease.
The objective is to confirm tolerance (by monitoring the appearance of possible side effects which would have gone unnoticed during the previous phases) and theeffectiveness of the drug candidate (by comparing its effectiveness to that of a placebo or an existing treatment).
The goal is to determine under which conditions of use the product is most effective.
It is only if the statistical analysis of the data collected has been able to demonstrate the effectiveness of the drug candidate, that a marketing authorization request file (AMM) is established with the national security agency. Medicines and Health Products (ANSM).



Janic wrote:When an industrialist uses blackmail for employment, it's never about efficiency industrial processes,
Why not; They can use several arguments to defend their business.
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Re: The dangers of homeopathy and food alternatives




by Janic » 15/07/19, 09:24

janic wrote: We are in the field of health as aviation and the navy are in the field of mechanics related to displacement, without more, it is not for tomorrow that we will send an aircraft carrier in space.
However, we can compare them. Example: I have to go as quickly as possible from France to the USA. What will be the fastest means of travel (plane or boat)?
So how we can compare the speed of healing between treatments A and H!
Or compare the depths that planes can reach compared to submarines. (unfortunately some planes win on this ground, but with all its passengers dead)
janic wrote: Apart from this one, rather interesting, but that you probably haven't read until the end, the rest is pretty hollow, heartbreakingly poor!

That is to say?
That the sites indicated are a pity of heartbreaking indications.
janic wrote: Tests 2 and 3 are measures of toxicity, only phase 3 begins to measure their relative effectiveness, since it is only in phase IV that the effects will really be measured (benefit / risk ) on the entire population (real guinea pigs!). Reread the protocols in question.
Fact! It's very clear:
A clear dark then!
Nice quotes, but incomplete since they do not indicate the toxicity tests carried out on paying PAID goods for that! (Often students in need of money or unemployed, while there are lots of healthy researchers who would only ask to serve as guinea pigs by checking, on themselves, their products.)
Ah, they're afraid of being poisoned, them !
.But no analysis of these apart from the discourse coming from the laboratories which alone carry out the tests and draw the conclusions that neither the ANSM nor any state authority verifies their veracity since they are not equipped for the make. It is called being judge and party, including for Boiron and others.
Now and this is the bottom of the subject what about these protocols concerning H?
Only the so-called toxicity tests remain common and therefore, officially, no toxicity is recognized for H provided that there is at least a dilution at 10.000 ° or an official recognition of a possible action because we are very far from the number of Avogadro (6x10 power 23), so often criticized.
Then, even if certain H practices do it (in opposition to the very principle of H) the treatments are individual and cannot be applied to targeted groups regardless of the number in randomized trials. Hence the impossible comparison between the protocols that BP wants to impose via governments and those of H or other therapies elsewhere. [*]
Only phase IV is also common, that is to say in sick populations whose effects can be measured on therapeutic efficacy and even toxicity.
As for pharmacovigilance, it lists barely 10% according to itself.
janic wrote: When an industrialist uses blackmail for employment, there is never any question of the efficiency of industrial processes,
Why not; They can use several arguments to defend their business.
Find a single industrialist, (you don't have to work in these sectors then), using the argument of process efficiency, for job blackmail. For example, a large automobile manufacturer will never criticize its own manufacturing (leaving this aspect to its competitors) as a reason for dismissal.

[*] a small nuance however! When a group has the same characteristics, similinum, the same product can then be applied to it as demonstrated by the results on cholera, in America and recently in Haiti and already cited.
https://planete-homeopathie.org/homeopathie-et-cholera/

http://www.homeopathe.org/Docupdf/veratrum.pdf

In 1854 epidemic in Genoa Benoît MURE (1809-1858) treats eight hundred seventy-four cholera patients, he loses seventy-four. He publishes the names of the cured patients in the newspapers, which makes him expelled from the city where said the population marched by shouting homeopathy or death
Constantin Hering (1809-1880) Cholera raged in Saint Petersburg in 1866 During this epidemic a temporary hospital was entrusted to Dr. Hering
in a populous neighborhood. He had 10 beds that were never empty. In 8 weeks Hering did not have to deplore the loss of a moribundly arrived patient against a mortality of 30% in other establishments. Stupor and dismay when we learned that Hering had used homeo remedies
mainly Veratrum album (homeopathic library 1870 volume III page 208, Baillière editeur Paris)


https://grotius.fr/l%E2%80%99homeopathi ... Swn0_kzbIU
how can homeopathy be humanitarian?

Jean-François Masson: Homeopathy is perhaps an alternative medicine - an appellation which I don't like very much - but it is certainly not a soft medicine, nor a slow medicine. First and contrary to popular belief, homeopathy is an ultra-fast acute medicine, much more than a chemical medicine. This is what convinced me at the start of my career to pursue this path. It can cure emergency vomiting and acute diarrhea, ear infections, tonsillitis, pneumonia and fevers. It is effective in the treatment of several tropical pathologies - diarrhea, parasitosis… Second, on common pathologies - otitis, bronchitis, gastroenteritis etc. - homeopathy is as effective in France as in Africa. Six million children die in the world of "avoidable" death. This means that they are victims of diseases that could be treated. They succumb to it because antibiotics are unavailable or counterfeit, and the terrain very weak. If you teach people there to react quickly to bronchitis, otitis, or diarrhea, this is a big step forward. Thirdly, homeopathy also consists in toning the patient's terrain, and contributes to the decrease in the frequency of outbreaks of viral hepatitis for example.


http://sphq.org/histoire/
etc ...
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