The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

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ABC2019
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by ABC2019 » 26/11/20, 04:01

Obamot wrote:If I had any allergy and the allopathy did not manage to come to the end (euphemism?) And you tell me that homeopathy does, I would say: I buy!

I know there is sugar and lactose free, but with xilytol.

It's crazy how irrational you talk about anyway. Homeopathy may very well be niche on its own, eliciting stimuli that other means would be unable to provide. I don't know if you manage to understand that all metabolic balances are played out to infinitesimal values, to the tenth (or even the hundredth) of pH.

I have no problem with that, besides I use pheromones to attract the male butterflies of the processionary caterpillar to protect my pine. And indeed the trap is full of male butterflies at the end of the season. If I wanted to be sure of the effect elsewhere, I could put an identical trap without pheromones to prove it, and I'm sure it would work.
So again, no problem with the idea that infinitesimal (but not zero) doses can work. the only thing I'm waiting for are references that describe experiments that show the effect to exist, as I just described to you for butterflies. If the scientific literature says that there aren't any, that Janic claims that they are fake news, but that when we ask him for his references, he does not give any by shirking on the pretext of bad news. faith in saying that one has only to look for them oneself, I conclude that he is almost certainly a liar.

He can rant and curse me back if he wants, that doesn't prove anything more, since that's the only thing he could do if he was really a liar anyway.
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Obamot » 26/11/20, 04:18

First of all I note and I welcome what I take for a nice open-mindedness. May she lay a foundation of trust!

2 small caveats.

1) Like a hockey stick, it's not very elegant to incriminate Janic, who must know a hundred times more than I do in certain areas. Considering the bickering, I can understand his attitude towards someone devious (but not always).

2) Go for your example on the solutions of your pheromones to attract male butterflies and we understand that you have understood this point, congratulations on that. But I take it for a metaphor, because without wanting to be categorical (and Janic will correct me if I'm wrong), but homeopathy can not be of any help for everything that would relate to hormones and other pheromones ... (and I don't know the reason, I just know that in some cases at least, it does not work: I give a very specific example: endometriosis.)

But it's culinary details, I salute your great openness on this point!
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by ABC2019 » 26/11/20, 07:26

Ooh what's happening to you Obamot, you give in the nice now? in any case, thank you for your appreciation, but I don't think I've changed: I'm ready to accept everything, if I am presented with proof (so not when we slip away telling me that I have only to look for them myself).
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Janic » 26/11/20, 08:23

Exnihiloest »25/11/20, 22:33
Janic wrote:
This is highly scientific, we can not doubt it!
Indeed, CQFD.
What do we say? Indeed!
And it is much more scientific than homeopathic medicines, which we know so well that they have no effect.
Who is ON? You?
Millions of patients have seen these effects, supposedly not to exist, for over a century, as they had seen the same effects of A that had not cured them. This technique is also used on animals by veterinarians H, on vegetation by farmers. So either you give credit to those who think that whispering in the ears of horses, in the ears of plants, is "charlatanism" that works effectively or you will have to find a real rational and really scientific explanation.
that they are not given the tests required for real drugs.
This decision does not depend on the faculties directly, but on the governments. A democratic state does not have the role, admittedly, of supporting one industry or another, but of protecting the health of populations, without a priori caste. Because as powerful as the pharmaceutical industry is in the whole world, the legislators are not in their boots… shod. However, the role of laboratory tests is to verify, first of all, the toxicity medication . But checking non-toxic drugs would be absurd and expensive for nothing. So the legislator decided that beyond the second Hahnemanian dilution there could be no toxicity of any product, including for the toxic drugs of A. If you want to change international law for most countries, feel free!
Finally, the courts convict therapists for charlatanism out when a patient who could have been treated by a more effective therapy was dissuaded from doing so by that therapist in question. No H, that I know of (who is above all a doctor in allopathy), acts in this way and therefore little, if not no, of trial on this presupposition of charlatanism. The medical associations themselves are as reluctant as governments to take a clear and solid position on the subject. Indeed, the growing number of patients having recourse to it, after having been abandoned by conventional medicine, underlines the benefits of this non-violent or toxic medicine (even if it would be a supposed placebo! Which medicine A uses) besides!) and long live placebology in this case, the medicine of the future!

So who is ON? Big pharma? [*] They are not stupid enough to credit themselves with incompetence so they accuse others, not themselves of being charlatans, despite their many failures of care. This is of the highest scientific level ... but without proof as usual.
What would be the interest of testing a powder of perlimpine which we know that the effect is placebo and that there is no more risk than with powdered sugar?
Re question: who is ON?
If Doctors H really believed in the effectiveness of their perlimpine powders, I am sure he would request the same clinical trials for their drugs as for the others.
Roughly, to use the analogy, as if the navy considered that aviation, which does not require the same tests as ships, would be charlatanism by this fact alone. The day the ships have wings we will talk about it again.
Oh, the intellectual level below the daisies.
But they know they can't prove anything beyond the placebo effect. Charlatans, but not idiots.
That, on the other hand, is stupid indeed! As stupid as saying the navy can't prove ships fly. Charlatans but not idiots! Unlike some, follow my gaze!

graduates have every right not to say the same as their faculties, so tell me, do you think any medical graduate calls H. quacks?
the diplomas or not in anything (especially) have every right to say bullshit like the others, there is no prohibition to that since you do it permanently and no need to be a doctor for that!
Janic wrote:
and spit out a lot of extra bullshit, but you're used to it! After the charlatans H, here are the universities which do bobology to lie to future patients in hospital. Also tell them that they are crooks, you are no longer close!
Does a university have the legal right to act in this way by outlawing itself? I doubt it and you don't know anything about it, like the rest of it. But the gratuitous and false accusations you are not close!
if it was illegal to tell anything, astrology would also be prohibited.
Astrology is not a medical discipline, in case you didn't realize it, where doctors have taken the Hippocratic Oath: (not astrologers)
The Hippocratic oath, as it is still taken in medical schools during the thesis defense, is as follows: " In the presence of the masters of this School and in front of the effigy of Hippocrates, I promise and I swear to be faithful to the laws of honor and probity in the practice of medicine. » hypocrisy and lies are hardly a part of it. but you are not a doctor so YOU ​​can afford it and you use it extensively
Once again, giving children sugar to make them forget their sores is perfectly legal.
When it is practiced by a doctor instead of a drug, with a patient, it does not obey the oath above.
Now that parents put sugar in the bowl of chocolate and in the jam, none of them even need to be a dietitian or nutritionist to do that, but they don't do medicine! Do you see the difference? It is unlikely, moreover! 8)

[*] guess who wrote that?

they are so scared of fake news, or have been recovered by big pharma or transformed into Radio-Elysée, that they have become incapable of the slightest critical spirit. Servile self-righteous people are better off serving soup.


@Obamot
All that is peak, you try to slash it, right?
He seeks to slash everything he ignores, especially! You know the story of the fly of the boat who believes by doing BZZZ, BZZZ that it is she who makes the boat move forward! : Evil:
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by ABC2019 » 26/11/20, 11:38

Janic wrote:When it is practiced by a doctor instead of a drug, with a patient, it does not obey the oath above.
Now that parents put sugar in the bowl of chocolate and in the jam, none of them even need to be a dietitian or nutritionist to do that, but they don't do medicine! Do you see the difference? It is unlikely, moreover! 8)

absolutely, it is illegal to give H. as a substitute for an effective drug, and I think doctors who do that can have big problems.
But giving that for ailments or diseases for which there is no effective treatment (like the oscillococcinum against the common cold), no that does not violate any oath, and it makes the small business of the drugstore work.
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Janic » 26/11/20, 13:22

ABC2019 »26/11/20, 12:38
absolutely, it is illegal to give H. as a substitute for an effective drug, and I think doctors who do that can have big problems.
janic wrote: Always so bad! can you name the laws that prove you are right? None What is legal and what is not is defined by applicable laws. Since the time that H. has been practiced in many countries and despite BP's efforts to influence legal experts in their direction, the law has not considered H. to be an illegal practice in prescribing its drugs. AFIS WHAT A WOUND!
But giving that for ailments or diseases for which there is no effective treatment (like the oscillococcinum against the common cold), no that does not violate any oath, and it makes the small business of the drugstore work.
There is on one side "the oath and on the other the law and the law always takes precedence over a professional oath. However, in pharmacies, the products for bobology produced by BP, are numerous, formerly aspirin, now paracetamol, tomorrow another chemical filth. Between two "evils", it is always better to choose the lesser, especially since H is not toxic!
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Obamot » 26/11/20, 13:36

There are many millions of people who are pre-diabetic and who are given drugs (medicines) by doctors to stimulate their insulin production when they don't need it. But doing that they are screwing up / tiring their pancreas (islets of Langerhans) ... A lot of things you blame the H are applicable to the A.

ABC2019 wrote:Ooh what's happening to you Obamot, you give in the nice now? in any case, thank you for your appreciation, but I don't think I've changed: I'm ready to accept everything, if I am presented with proof (so not when we slip away telling me that I have only to look for them myself).
The sterile discussions are counterproductive, so as soon as the debate offers “something else” I take the opportunity, you think so! : Cheesy: No. Nothing special, you have to develop your previous reasoning.

Is it possible that the interactions of homeopathy (but I do not apply this question exclusively to H, it can be acupuncture, possibly therapeutic massages (any type of medicine that is recognized to have resolved a problem by stimulus), are of an intermediate order of medical science, of a domain of the minute that does not fall under the same epistemology as that which one usually conceives and applies. is even proven (I will come back to this later, because otherwise we skip steps).

What is epistemology?
It is to achieve a goal of care / s and / or healing by a principled method - which can escape current criticism to enter more subtle critical areas, with a production of more 'products' or interactions. subtle: I am thinking here of 'less' or non-invasive techniques (as an example) - and suddenly, as regards the subject that interests us, that interrelations between the theories of different sciences have not yet been explored (far from being entirely forever since science is advancing). But which can be verified.

If we agree with that, I do not see how homeopathy will escape this rule. And here we are getting closer to the heart of the problem since this is apparently the achilean heel of homeopaths, according to what you have often said until then. The burden of proof.
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Janic » 26/11/20, 13:53

If we agree with that, I do not see how homeopathy will escape this rule. And here we are getting closer to the heart of the problem since this is apparently the achilean heel of homeopaths, according to what you have often said until then. The burden of proof.
effectively! But some fail to understand that certain areas are beyond their mode of comprehension. It's like two foreigners with different languages ​​trying to explain a concept in a language the other is unable to understand.

This is called the tower of Babel (the gate of god) where individuals building this tower together end up dividing since they no longer understand the language of the other (or language) and the tower. will therefore never end.
This is for example the big fault of Europe, with each country with different languages ​​that the populations do not understand, Unlike America, for example, which has a common language.
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Obamot » 26/11/20, 14:35

It may be true. But ... No that's not it (note that you do well to talk about it, but at this stage it's not my point). It is necessary to place oneself under the angle of the dominant science, It is the rule of Ockham's razor. Don't be shocked that I take this reasoning. I do it deliberately because it fits into the concepts of rationalism and nominalism ... Otherwise it would be too easy to have an approach that would only be specific and favorable to homeopathy, it would not be accepted (tone maybe point will emerge later ???)

Epistemology, as modestly summarized in my example, does not at all engage with a common language. Well yes, there is still a cleavage. It even involves the exclusion of the possibility of writing a common language, which is only the reflection of the current situation. At this stage of the discussion, we are not there yet.
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Re: The benefits of homeopathy and food and other alternatives.

by Janic » 26/11/20, 15:17

But I take it for a metaphor, because without wanting to be categorical (and Janic will correct me if I'm wrong), but homeopathy can not be of any help for everything that would relate to hormones and other pheromones ...

Well no ! I must say something else and otherwise. H, of which most of those who allow themselves to talk about it without knowing anything about it, is not limited to formal presences and doses since very high dilutions no longer find any trace, no physical presence of the initial product. .
Thus the usual function that is attributed to hormones at a weightable dose, for example, can be found in these diluted products and no one (some are trying to explain more or less interesting) currently) can explain it. But it is without real interest vis-à-vis a patient in need of care and if a hormone at a weightable dose has a noticeable effectiveness and that the same in infinitesimal dose with the same action, or even better, it is only this common function which matters to the patient ("scientists can always play with their more or less eccentric theories)
(and I don't know the reason, I just know that in some cases at least it doesn't work: I'm giving a very specific example: endometriosis.)
It is to move a little quickly on this particular point. I repeat: H does not proceed by disease, but by patient and in medicine other than A, we call it holistic that you know well! no individual is an organ independent of the rest of the body, and a manifestation in a particular location only indicates a particular weakness in the body. You are all familiar there!
So the H., even if he poses a conventional diagnosis (and there it hurts you?) Pushes the questions far beyond those of a simple A, until appearing ridiculous to those who are not familiar with it. [*] and it is these cumulative indications that will indicate the appropriate remedy. Thus a hormonal problem, for the example you give, will not be "treated" by hormones, but by a remedy that is the opposite, apparent, of the problem encountered and that we will find in other unconventional methods /; acupuncture, osteopathy, hydrotherapy, dietetics, etc ...
[*] he could ask a few hundred questions, but with experience, he limits himself to the most relevant!
The real difficulty in H is to find not only the right remedy, the similimum, but also and much more difficult, the adequate dilution. Let me explain myself with a concrete example. When I was much, much younger, a person had come to school to explain to us how a chain reaction worked and for that, he had taken the example of a multitude of mousepads with each a ping pong ball balanced and he threw a single ball which then triggered a chain reaction.
Why now the dilution? If instead of sending a ping pong ball, he had sent a pétanque ball, the reaction would not have taken place by blocking the first swatter, if he had sent a small ball it would not have been enough to trigger the reaction. Ball, ball, ball do not have the same action depending on the individual concerned, even with good fags.
This complexity between questioning, finding the similimum, finding the right dose, means that the A's who do not approach the question from this angle say to themselves that if it did not work it was a placebo, result of total ignorance on this subject. But the simplest of the works on H explains this fundamental difference between H and A, it is still necessary to be interested.
So a concrete example! Dr Broussalian confronted with one of the cholera patients to whom he is about to give a remedy which has been proven in this type of disease, but this patient complains of a feeling of heat in the shoulder blades which is unusual in these cases . He therefore changes to another remedy, more similimum and the patients then recover very quickly, which is unusual in these cases of cholera (to be checked for the comma in his videos) and that we are not told that cholera it's bobology! In America during a cholera epidemic, precisely, the H had obtained 80% cure against 20% (to be checked for accuracy) in A! This is what gives them the balls!
So in holistic medicine, there are no diseases, there are only patients! And each patient is a case to be treated in a unitary way, not in groups constituted as a vaccine claims to do it everywhere, which is biologically an absurdity.
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