It was better before, and the ecologism will make us return

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Exnihiloest
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It was better before, and the ecologism will make us return




by Exnihiloest » 02/10/19, 12:58

Pollution: life in Europe was much worse before industrialization

It is the wealth created by industrialization that has allowed us to improve the environment.


https://www.contrepoints.org/2019/09/24 ... ialisation
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by Christophe » 02/10/19, 13:21

The title is right, the subtitle much less... he's even deceiving and lying ...

I think we should ask Rouennais what they think of this assertion! : Mrgreen:

The subtitle would be much more accurate if "our environment (= living environment)" replaced "the environment" ...
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by GuyGadebois » 02/10/19, 13:25

Exnihiloest wrote:https://www.contrepoints.org/2019/09/24/354116-pollution-la-vie-en-europe-etait-bien-pire-avant-lindustrialisation

Still neoliberal propaganda and idle and biased comparisons. If we consider that the industrial revolution began in 1750, then all the inconveniences related in the article are largely attributable to this one, which also extols the merits. Laughable!
The Romans were much cleaner than "us" the Europeans. So yes, it was better before, but it depends on when.
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by sen-no-sen » 02/10/19, 14:25

It is undeniable that the conditions of human life have increased considerably since the rise of industrialization, it is a truth of the most commonplace.
The figures of the demographic evolution demonstrate it could not be more clearly:
Image
In 1815 the population was approaching approximately one billion inhabitants against about 7,6 billion today.

Air quality is greatly improved in major Western urban centers (such as London or Paris).
Recall that the smog episode in London in December 1952 had led to the premature death of more than 10 000 people in a week!

However, it would be extremely naive to see that it is misleading overall living conditions on earth would have improved.
The contemporary period characterized by exponential technologism is redefined from a strategy of optimization of constraints based on the dissipation principle.
That is, pollution has never been so important but that it is now evacuated on a larger or more channeled surface (2).
If one could actually find in a later period a very strong pollution in Old London (eg), one should not forget that at the same time, Borneo or Java had all their forests and were virgin of any population .
In the same way, almost all the major industrial centers today did not exist!

Except and this is the point which interests us, the question is to know to which threshold the technical progress is it positive (at least for the human (3)?
Our ancestors have a lot to benefit from a relatively healthy environment and a high-performance medicine, which is translated by a net increase in life expectancy. In the industrialized countries, we now see a drop in the expectation of life in good health see a drop in life expectancy quite short.
The indicators suggest that the decline in biodiversity and the dissipation of pollution should lead to a net decline in life expectancy in the coming years, particularly due to an excessively large extractivism (resulting in conflicts, famines etc ...)

So, what is the purpose of the article? Statement of truisms, make reminders to the nostalgic ecologist of an imaginary epoch, or mislead readers uninformed about the complexity of the processes involved?



(1) ie encompassing the entire living system.
(2) case of the nuclear power which makes it possible to concentrate in some m3 the equivalent pollution of several hundreds of tons of coal at the price of a plurimillenary pollution.
(3) Objectively and from the point of view of the totality of the living, there is no progress and it is for this reason that we speak of the current period as the 6th phase of extinction.
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by GuyGadebois » 02/10/19, 16:01

Tryphon's answers are only western-centered. The rest of the world does not exist ... except to plunder it to maintain our way of life.
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by Exnihiloest » 02/10/19, 17:08

GuyGadebois wrote:... If we consider that the industrial revolution began in 1750 ...

Well, let's not bother for a bit of historical revisionism, depending on the circumstances.
If you believe that life was better in the Middle Ages ...
https://www.histoire-pour-tous.fr/dossiers/2463-hygiene-et-pollution-au-moyen-age.html
Industrialization began in the middle ages, Gadgetdebois told us.
Even in the nineteenth century, one in two children would die in infancy. This is perhaps his ideal, a way to limit the population on earth to favor bees. If one wanted to make millions of deaths, one would follow his precepts. The West and especially Europe is what we envy a large part of the rest of the world, the one ecologistism claims to forbid to follow our path.
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by GuyGadebois » 02/10/19, 17:21

Exnihiloest wrote:
GuyGadebois wrote:... If we consider that the industrial revolution began in 1750 ...

Well, let's not bother for a bit of historical revisionism, depending on the circumstances.
If you believe that life was better in the Middle Ages ...
Even in the nineteenth century, one in two children would die in infancy. This may be your ideal, a way to limit the population on earth to favor bees. If one wanted to make millions of deaths, one would follow your precepts. The West and especially Europe is what we envy a large part of the rest of the world, the one you want to prevent us from following our path.

1- https://clio-texte.clionautes.org/pourq ... terre.html
2 - You mix everything and think that environmentalists reject everything and wish the return to the candle
3 - Our way of life is not possible all over the globe because of the lack of resources, the geopolitical configuration that allows us this model by vampirizing and destroying the rest of the planet.
4- Most people on earth do not aspire to live on the Western model, unlike your free assertion.
5- The millions of deaths since the industrial age are directly and / or indirectly from the West.
6- Without the insects, we would not be.
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by Exnihiloest » 02/10/19, 18:26


So why did you start climate warming, which is supposed to be linked to industrialization in the 19th century and not in 1750? This is the proof of the circumstantial argument. As for the progress with respect to the industrialization of the XNIXXth century, see the following post.

2 - You mix everything and think that environmentalists reject everything and wish the return to the candle

... in the same way that the Communists did not want gulags. But between what they "want", and what their stupid measures imply, is night and day. The implementation of their measures makes us return to the candle. Fortunately, the fanaticism of their spearheads is starting to fade away, and if they want the power to impose their whims on us, they will only have the choice to take it by force, which they will probably attempt if their present approach by religion to the god Nature fails.

3 - Our way of life is not possible around the globe because of the lack of resources ...

Of course, if, as a matter of technical progress and human ingenuity taking into account the ecology, this human in which you do not trust, that you want to bully, while your own ideas are human. I'm sure it has not touched you yet that villipending man for his past actions while pretending as a man to have solutions for the future, is absurdly illogical, in addition to a negation of the efforts and courage of our ancestors in putting in place the past solutions that were vital to them and their children.

4- Most people on earth do not aspire to live on the Western model, unlike your free assertion.

Always in denial, so. Massive migrations to the West prove the opposite, as has the massive shift to capitalism in Asian countries, particularly China and South Korea, which boosted their standard of living. It is nerd that the facts deny you thus without appeal.

5- The millions of deaths since the industrial age are directly and / or indirectly from the West.

Affirmation just as free as the others, and of little weight, because the industrialization allowed to live 7 billions of men on earth, men who could not have been born without it, question of mass production notably of the food, and that will have to disappear with the solutions that you propose. Stalin and Mao alone are 110 million dead in their own country. There is no doubt that the next muscular green ideology, for the happiness of the people, will do the same or more.
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by Exnihiloest » 02/10/19, 18:33

The air quality has improved considerably since the 1960 / 70 years, as proved by the figures provided in France by the Airparif stations.
It was not better before. Ditto in the USA, the Environmental Agency (EPA) publishes the trends of air pollution in the US since 1990:

Carbon monoxide: -74%
Lead: -82%
Nitrogen oxides: -57%
Ozone: -21%
PM10: -26%
PM2.5: -39%
Sulfur oxides: -89%
https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/air-quality-national-summary
Other pollutants in the air are decreasing too. These results are obtained despite an increase in industrial production and transport.

These results are almost as satisfactory as those of Airparif in France.

Ditto in London, unlike New Delhi: https://ourworldindata.org/london-air-pollution

Cooking with cow dung smoke is harmful to the health of Indian women in 2019, and so was the time of Rishabhanatha in the 10th century BCE. "Cooking with cow dung smoke", a nice environmental program, isn't it?
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Re: It was better before, and ecologism will make us come back




by GuyGadebois » 02/10/19, 18:49

1 - We were not talking about global warming but living conditions, pollution.
2- Russia is also the West with the same industrial goals as capitalism and scientific development. 2 bis- Who fucked up the shit in China and favored the arrival of Mao, if not the English and their capitalist views on this country? 2 ter- If the ecologists one day take power, I doubt it will be by force and I doubt even more that it will save what "works" well in our societies. Once again you are projecting your fantasies.
3- Of course not, we are already living beyond our means while preventing the development of others by our mismanagement, our thirst for raw materials and our globalized corruption. 3 bis - The war efforts of our ancestors have served only the interests of big capital, the industrialists of steel and chemistry, at the cost of millions of deaths.
5- The millions of deaths on which the industrial society was built are (drum roll): Indians, Amerindians, Africans, Far Easterners (Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans), Orientals (Arabs, Persians) ... and I certainly forget it.
I add, contrary to what Sardou claims, it is that if we were not defeated and enslaved by Nazism, it is much more thanks to Stalin than thanks to the "Ricans".
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“It is better to mobilize your intelligence on bullshit than to mobilize your bullshit on intelligent things. (J.Rouxel)
"By definition the cause is the product of the effect". (Tryphion)
"360 / 000 / 0,5 is 100 million and not 72 million" (AVC)

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