vegetarian or vegan diet ecology and health

[Obamot]

First we are there on Econology and not elsewhere, unless we have the gift of ubiquity ...

Then it's funny, because you say that you would not be allowed to copy / paste ... But it is however what you just did above

Moreover, ethics absolutely allows it, for example in the form of citations, if they are nominative and if we publish extracts indicating the source! Curious that you deviate from one rule and not the other ...

For a long time, we have had the feeling of a kind of specialist discourse that perishes in his corner on the different food modes does not correspond to his own aims, and without he never deigns to tell us in detail, what is his ...

It's incongruous

To want to go elsewhere, I repeat, it would still be necessary to at least expect a more convincing speech and a good open-mindedness, since we are on a forum not dedicated. And I have rarely seen someone shirk as much as he is begged

As it stands, the least we can say is that we stay hungry ...!

[Janic]

Then it's funny, because you say that you would not be allowed to copy / paste ... But it is however what you just did above

I indicate sources which depending on the case can be consulted directly or after registration, not what the person (s) have expressed.

Moreover, ethics absolutely allows it, for example in the form of citations, if they are nominative and if we publish extracts indicating the source! Curious that you deviate from one rule and not the other ...

Deontology also makes it possible to refer to an abundant source rather than to select a testimony which could go in my direction while the whole of the testimonies gives a wide range of personal experiences. It is therefore a question of interest whether the subject arouses or not and nobody is obliged to be interested in it.

For a long time, we have had the feeling of a kind of specialist discourse that perishes in his corner on the different food modes does not correspond to his own aims, and without he never deigns to tell us in detail, what is his ...

Because UN point of view is not representative of a multitude. MON point of view is clear, however: no meat (as with all VG ... well it's true that this is their characteristic! ) like others do not take alcohol or tobacco because it is not essential for health.

To want to go elsewhere, I repeat, it would still be necessary to at least expect a more convincing speech and a good open-mindedness, since we are on a forum not dedicated. And I have rarely seen someone shirk as much as he is begged

I repeat, in case it would not have been perceived, I do not seek to convince (apart from a few attempts 40 years ago now), this path is like another: or it interests and everyone has the possibility of get information without calling on a guru (that's how I did it), or she indifferent and in this case all this talk is useless.

As it stands, the least we can say is that we stay hungry ...!

It's like any subject, I am hardly nourished by many speeches on the different forums that I visit, but as I am aware that it is not a few superficial opinions which can give the bottom of a subject, I remain unsatisfied as well or I look for the most complete sources of information possible.

[Obamot]

Janic keeps contradicting himself because:
- pinch me if I'm wrong, but it is nevertheless he who opened this thread ... And now we learn that it is to say nothing concrete. Just to go cook us an egg somewhere else?
However notwithstanding the ecology I have not dreamed of, the title speaks well of Vegeta * ism as well as health. The food bowl is an integral part of it ...!
But where are these materials? Perhaps should be assumed and become a little consistent ...
- he intervenes in the threads which relate to this subject, but he claims that people only have to inform themselves, thus he dodges any embarrassing answer on the bottom!

Is it, so that nobody can no longer contradict his arguments ...? And live in a small ideal world where he will necessarily have reason for him?

Too easy. And above all a little loose ...
How to understand, when he claims to be so saddened by the death of these billions of farm animals, and that otherwise he shows such resignation.

There it is no longer incongruous, but incomprehensible to me and I regret it.

[Janic]

- pinch me if I'm wrong, but it was he who opened this thread ...

On request! Guess who?

And now we learn that it is to say nothing concrete. Just going to cook an egg somewhere else?

As I said before, we must already find out what VG is and some sites have specialized on this issue and it seems logical and consistent to do this first. Then, and only then, if specific and precise points raise questions, I have offered to give a personal and focused opinion on such a point. You can't do better!

However notwithstanding the ecology I have not dreamed of, the title speaks well of Vegeta * ism and health. The food bowl is an integral part of it ...!

this is why I refer to the study of AAD, for example, which allows to rough the subject, I still cannot copy / paste all the literature on this subject.

But where are these materials? Perhaps should be assumed and become a little consistent ...
- he intervenes in the threads which relate to this subject, but he claims that people only have to inform themselves, thus he dodges any embarrassing answer on the bottom!

Indeed, it is first necessary to learn in order to have a global look on a subject that few people know (given its social rarity) and which is not the result of some generally unfavorable media articles.

Is it, so that nobody can no longer contradict his arguments ...? And live in a small ideal world where he will necessarily have reason for him?

To contradict THE arguments, you must at least have these and build them on something tangible. Hence, once again, the specialized sites which produce a maximum of these arguments which come back each time and unfortunately always the same!

Too easy. And above all a little loose ...

The notion of cowardice is relative!

How to understand, when he claims to be so saddened by the death of these billions of farm animals, and that otherwise he shows such resignation.

Above all, I am realistic! Even assuming indisputable reasons (which is a utopia!) It would not change anything to the fact that the one who wants to change food mode, will not wait after my arguments and the one who does not want to change anything will not recognize them as acceptable. The various polemics that can be read on this site, easily show that few convince those who are not willing to hear, whatever the point of view stated.

There it is no longer incongruous, but incomprehensible to me and I regret it.

Do not regret anything, if one day the VG really interests you, you will be able to make the way without the help of anyone.

[sen-no-sen]

you must already find out what the VGs are (...)

Defining individuals in relation to their food lifestyle seems to me to be a fairly communitarian vision.
Or is it just a language facility?

[Obamot]

Alas, I fear very much that even by indicating where there is water ...

- pinch me if I'm wrong, but it was he who opened this thread ...

On request! Guess who?

Janic you're really priceless, in every sense of the word! Ok, since you insist, I'll give you the bottom of my thoughts! So no need to answer me, it's ONLY this JE think (even if in general I do not engage in this personal approach exercise).

You surely deduced from this that because I did not agree with everything you said, that possibly made me an enemy potentially dangerous for the cause. So you don't answer me anymore?

If that's true, you are grossly mistaken. But this is not the only point in which you are wrong!

As I said before, we must already find out what VG is and some sites have specialized on this issue and it seems logical and consistent to do this first. Then, and only then, if specific and precise points raise questions, I have offered to give a personal and focused opinion on such a point. You can't do better!

Oulhààà: There is a serious shift, make so many secrets around the basket of the housewife as you go ... when there is so much to do in terms of awareness "in general" ?!

So no no, and no ... I totally reject this approach, which would like to hide the message to make it attractive, or something ... Besides, this argument does not apply here, since those who are interested in that, are already motivated (it is therefore paralogism of a pedagogy of bad quality ...) and this by all the subjects that directly concern this site, and this one is part of it - since there is a "prevention" section, which I myself initiated not without reason or precaution - and for the humorous side, if we believe your point of view: we could then apply that to all forums dedicated, and we would not turn any information in them ... (lol)

This argument only works for the case where there is no step (and again, it depends on which "school" we come from ...).
And this is hardly the case today, with the explosion of interest in organic products ...

Or you answer:
- like a doctor, unless you are not one?
- like a guru, unless you are not one? But I point out to you that in a sect, one practices in this way. I'm talking about those who seek to attract flocks around mysterious secrets ... By infantilizing them to better harpoon them afterwards.

We are no more children than a food mode should be reserved for a caste with a name ...! Even if we can tolerate someone claiming it, it's their choice! (I do not claim Kousmine, eh, since she tolerates eating meat and / or dairy products ^^)

It is also very unfortunate that since the beginning that you have frequented the forum, you greatly comfort some on the somewhat "chapel" aspect of the VG universe. At the beginning it went well, because you understood that this point was harmful to get your message across (and any argument in general) - I managed to make you understand it (even if marked on your part by a slight hesitation) since after having spent 15 years in ecumenical circles, you understood that there was no hostility on my part in this regard, but only an approach that did not reflect this (however real) aspect of ostentatiously. The problem is, you've crossed the red line several times amha.

I am not against, not even the fact that to presume that there would be a deterministic order would be saving (and it is, it is obvious, since we see it in healings) - but everyone must have his freedom of thought and thinking - INCLUDING THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT, works both ways, my dear! And it can be iatrogenic (or not) in the same way, it depends ...

Because we have known it for a long time - including since the time of the wars of religion, which are unfortunately not over - this type of approach can ALSO be iatrogenic, and moreover the blockages which result from this type of approach, do not do not correspond, neither to the stakes, nor to the pedagogy "which goes well", since that can cause other blockages ... (I say that, notwithstanding the fate of the animal cause whereas you make no difference, which honors you, but allows me to also think of those who depend on their diet, because we do not leave them the choice on the cultural level => it is therefore necessary to find the appropriate method, it is what I am working to do, beyond questions of “belonging”).

So call it "gait"Or whatever, but let me call it more simply needs, and obviously, even if it worked with you (rightly or wrongly) you are not in a position to apply it to those you do not know. And even less to impose it in an operating mode, amha ...

Because I am convinced that what is embarrassing for you is not so much:
— "To refrain from answering, to facilitate said approach" hum ... SINCE THOSE WHO DO IT IN THE EDUCATIONAL ENVIRONMENT - AND WITH REAL CHALLENGES - DO NOT SHOULD CALL IT ON THE ROOFTOPS at the risk of making all their attempts fail,
- But good to answer quite simply ...

Because it also feels that you burn at every opportunity to express your point of view. This proves that you have misunderstood how the example you highlight should apply or when your reasoning pursues another design ... Hence "The embarrassment of speaking" (hey hey ... but whatever)

Yes whatever, it's okay, as long as we now know the bottom of your syllabus! Even if I consider that your compassion for animals is relatively sincere.

Bof, everything else that follows, follows from the same paradigm

Indeed, it is first necessary to learn in order to have a global look on a subject that few people know (given its social rarity) and which is not the result of some generally unfavorable media articles.

Okay, "as much as it remains hidden ”... hum ...! CQFD.

Is it, so that nobody can no longer contradict his arguments ...? And live in a small ideal world where he will necessarily have reason for him?

To contradict THE arguments, you must at least have these and build them on something tangible.

Yes, that we understood why it is necessary to infantilize the crowds ... But as already expressed, it goes to the opposite end (read all Piaget and constructivist epistemology ...)

Too easy. And above all a little loose ...

The notion of cowardice is relative!

Yes, basically it depends on the real idea that we have in mind ...
But in an honorable step it should not be ...

Above all, I am realistic! Even assuming indisputable reasons (which is a utopia!) It would not change the fact that those who want to change their diet, will not wait after my arguments and those who do not want to change anything will not recognize them as acceptable.

Tah daaah ... So in this case your attitude is contrary to that which should be adopted. Re-CQFD ...!

There it is no longer incongruous, but incomprehensible to me and I regret it.
Do not regret anything, if one day the VG really interests you, you will be able to make the way without the help of anyone.

Precisely, you know absolutely nothing!
For example, you can do Kousmine very well while being vegetarian

PS: And it will be hard this time, but if you answer, please do not answer "next", or in another thread, because it is not required that you do!

[Janic]

Alas, I fear very much that even by indicating where there is water ...

This is also my opinion!

You surely deduced from this that because I did not agree with everything you said, that possibly made me an enemy potentially dangerous for the cause. So you don't answer me anymore?

I do not consider you as an enemy, we are also with a few "details" on the same wavelength. So the discussion revolves around differences rather than commonalities.

Oulhààà: There is a serious shift, to make so many secrets around the basket of the housewife as you go there ... while there would be so much to do in terms of awareness "in general" ?!

It is not a secret, but simply not to direct towards this or that form of vegetarianism (which are numerous) and where everyone can fill their basket with the housewife precisely.

This argument only operates in the case where there is no procedure (and again, it depends on which "school" one comes from ...).

Precisely there are so many different approaches that to favor one would be a mistake.

And this is hardly the case today, with the explosion of interest in organic products ...

Do not confuse VG and organic, some organic are not VG, others VG are not organic.

Or you answer:
- like a doctor, unless you are not one?

I am not a doctor but a hygienist. One takes care, the other warns!

- like a guru, unless you are not one? But I point out to you that in a sect, one practices in this way. I'm talking about those who seek to attract flocks around mysterious secrets ... By infantilizing them to better harpoon them afterwards.

On the one hand I do not have a usual Western look on the term guru which with us has a derogatory sense (like the word sect besides). Every “teacher” individual is a guru regardless of the sector where this education is given. But I also share this orientalist side that a guru is not a recruiter of disciples but a practitioner who is interested in his practice. Kousmine was a guru and his teachings were put into practice by a few and who testify that this teaching was positive for them, but left the others in a deep indifference. It is the lot of all teaching.

We are no more children than a food mode should be reserved for a caste with a name ...!

Unfortunately yes! If this food mode were integrated into a society, taught in schools, faculties, as credible and easily practicable, its caste side would disappear by itself; but do not dream even if some VG believe it.

Even if we can tolerate someone claiming it, it's their choice!

This is also my opinion

(I do not claim Kousmine, eh, since she tolerates eating meat and / or dairy products ^^)

There is a difference between tolerating and recommending! Kousmine was in line with the great hygienist currents, but at the same time, as a doctor, his role was to treat not to change society.

THE MEAT:
It is devoid of cellulosic fibers. Badly masticated, it is poorly digested and is responsible for intestinal putrefactions. The incidence of colon cancer is increasing in countries that are heavy consumers of meat.
MILK CREAM AND BUTTER:
They make the wall of the intestine porous and permeable to the bacteria found there.
Foods favorable to the intestine
===> UNSATURATED FATS
(cold pressed virgin vegetable oils)
Rich in vitamins F, they strengthen the impermeability of the wall of the intestine.

Nothing favorable to animal products!
Then the patient to integrate or not the main lines indicated by it.

The problem is that you have crossed the red line several times amha.

The problem is that this red line is everyone who fixes it at will, so arbitrary (for the anecdote, I challenged the speech on the B12 held by the AVF and others forums VG: for them it's crossing the red line too, but I like to cross this kind of line!)

I am not against, not even the fact that to presume that there would be a deterministic order would be saving (and it is, it is obvious, since we see it in healings) - but everyone must have his freedom of thought and thinking - INCLUDING THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT, works both ways, my dear! And it can be iatrogenic (or not) in the same way, it depends ...

I didn't say anything else! I only express myself for those who are interested in the subject, the others (this subject testifies) have other centers of interest.

Because we have known it for a long time - including since the time of the wars of religion, which are unfortunately not over - this type of approach can ALSO be iatrogenic, and moreover the blockages which result from this type of approach, do not do not correspond, neither to the stakes, nor to the pedagogy "which goes well", since that can cause other blockages ... (I say that, notwithstanding the fate of the animal cause whereas you make no difference, which honors you, but allows me to also think of those who depend on their diet, because we do not leave them the choice on the cultural level => it is therefore necessary to find the appropriate method, it is what I am working to do, beyond questions of “belonging”).

This is probably what differs us. I have not sought for a long time to teach, nor to convince. If a person requests my opinion, I give it and if they do not ask, I do not approach the question. So absolutely no question of imposing anything, not even on my children or grandchildren, considering that it is an individual and not a collective approach.

Because I am convinced that what is embarrassing for you is not so much:

- But good to answer quite simply ...

I have already answered, it is not answering which bothers me, but to provide an answer which would only correspond to an orientation and therefore fix attention on a single point when the subject is on the contrary very broad with different modes of apprehension according to individuals, their experience, their illnesses, etc.

Even if I consider that your compassion for animals is relatively sincere.

But it is not my main motivation, if there was an absolute necessity to kill to feed myself, I would perhaps do it, survival is more important than a philosophy; but in this case nothing requires it and therefore this choice effectively avoids all these killings .... for our type of society in any case.

Correct, "so far as it remains hidden" ... hum ...! CQFD.

Not at all, it is not a question of hiding, but of finding that it is concealed by the holders of the different political, economic, health, etc. (although it has improved in recent decades, except for the veganism which continues to be fought by food lobbies.)

Obamot wrote:

Yes, that we understood why it is necessary to infantilize the crowds ... But as already expressed, it goes to the opposite end (read all Piaget and constructivist epistemology ...)

The crowds in question do not need me to be infantilized, others with many powers have been harnessed for a long time.

Janic wrote:
The notion of cowardice is relative!

Yes, basically it depends on the real idea that we have in mind ...
But in an honorable step it should not be ...

Ideally, there should be a lot that should be, but we live in this world, not in the teddy bear paradise!

For example, you can do Kousmine very well while being vegetarian

Absolutely!

[Obamot]

Sausage to avoid responding to the whole idea. as usual.

Responded "next door", as usual. so no comment, don't feed ...

[Obamot]

I will still correct certain points.

Because to manipulate what Kousmine said wrongly is quite lamentable, since it does not correspond to reality ...

There is a difference between tolerating and recommending! Kousmine was in line with the great hygienist currents, but at the same time, as a doctor, his role was to treat not to change society.

THE MEAT:
It is devoid of cellulosic fibers. Badly masticated, it is poorly digested and is responsible for intestinal putrefactions. The incidence of colon cancer is increasing in countries that are heavy consumers of meat.
MILK CREAM AND BUTTER:
They make the wall of the intestine porous and permeable to the bacteria found there.
Foods favorable to the intestine
===> UNSATURATED FATS
(cold pressed virgin vegetable oils)
Rich in vitamins F, they strengthen the impermeability of the wall of the intestine.

Nothing favorable to animal products!
Then the patient to integrate or not the main lines indicated by it

No:
- she said "Badly chewed", Janic makes it HIS interpretation. While he knows very well that digestion by fermentation is one of the essential points, which must be remembered from his method. It is therefore an argument which is therefore not honorable.

- she never recommended, neither butter, nor cream, since they contain saturated fat, as it is written. And precisely, she recommended replacing them with polyunsaturated fats, another essential point of her method. So bringing out such an argument to use it "against" a very little meat diet, is no more honorable.

- and if she suggested replacing these harmful animal products with lean serum 0%, which is a by-product of milk representing no danger (except the rare allergy problem not resolved), it is the opposite of this. that Janic's post suggests, since she added sunflower or linseed oil, etc. (from the first cold press).

So here we enter into the manipulation and the diversion of meaning.

In addition to speak about “hygienism”:
- is still an attempt to put labels everywhere, and I hate that, because it doesn't reflect what this doctor-researcher was.
- it does not pay homage to orthomolecular medicine, which is multidisciplinary and not closed in on itself!
- it is also a total ignorance of Kousmine's work, since it is thanks to the errors of the Institut Pasteur (hygienist current), that she made one of her main discoveries: thus we can say that her approach was diametrically opposed on certain points of view! Since she has on the contrary denounced the contradictions of this current and recommended a method to remedy them in a good way!
- the interest of Kousmine, is therefore precisely the fact that she was not sectarian, but knew how to explain: how and why it was necessary to go in such or such direction.

PS: On a personal note, I specify that I do not take a position on any dogma, and claim no method. It is to be seen on a case-by-case basis, even if I am convinced that there would be things that would be better not to do and others rather highly recommended ... But I believe that we must be precise and do not imply inaccurate things.

[Janic]

In addition to speak about “hygienism”:
- is still an attempt to put labels everywhere, and I hate that, because it doesn't reflect what this doctor-researcher was.
- it does not pay homage to orthomolecular medicine, which is multidisciplinary and not closed in on itself!

Talking about orthomolecular medicine is also a label, words are used to define a concept, not to confine oneself to it.

- it is also a total ignorance of Kousmine's work, since it is thanks to the errors of the Institut Pasteur (hygienist current), that she made one of her main discoveries:

where is the relationship with the Pasteur Institute?

so we can say that his approach was diametrically opposed on certain points of view! Since she has on the contrary denounced the contradictions of this current and recommended a method to remedy them in a good way!

that's what hygienism does!
On the other hand I think I know where the confusion comes from, it is vital hygiene, not sanitation networks or the fight against microbes, when I mention hygienism!