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Janic
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by Janic » 04/04/12, 08:06

Hello
Suppose, but only suppose, that an HIV virus exists and that it is classified in the family that you cite below:
There are also viruses, (not retroviruses) which hide in the undetectable nerves or ganglia, like that of Herpes (lymph nodes), that almost all of us have, sleeping, and waking up sometimes.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herp%C3%A8s
http://papamamanbebe.net/a7440-le-sperm ... s-the.html

That of chickenpox, the same, disappears for a lifetime in a ganglion, to wake up when you are old, for shingles, painful cow's milk, endless for years.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zona

You do not provide an answer to: why such dormant viruses (and therefore a dormant HIV virus can sleep until the death of its host) wake up to become pathological and lead to the happiness of the labs with their destructive chemical treatments reducing the immune system to heartache. According to your speech, it would only be the HIV virus that would be awake and active: again why? And finally why certain AIDS patients, Varicellians, Zoneans, without current treatments see disappear pathological signs and regain normal health. (lying down the virus !!! : Evil: )
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by Obamot » 04/04/12, 08:19

dedeleco wrote:bonsoir,
nlc asserts in its addiction to denial of HIV / AIDS:
For HIV / AIDS, there is nothing, not even a virus, it has never been isolated from a patient


Totally archival.


No, no and no. Montagnier himself said so recently. They failed to do so - although this may be the case, but it's still a hypothesis - Montagnier said that the only marker of HIV-AIDS was a protein. He took full responsibility for saying that this protein was enough to prove the existence of the retro-virus. It is extremely thin and therefore based on not much.

Because if it were not a hypothesis, they would have completely identified the problem and would know how to act [and treat]! [Yes but they possibly know it, only it doesn't bring anything ...]

The real problem with AIDS, cancer and other degenerative diseases is that there is no: [nor clear directives from the health authorities who would take ad hoc measures to protect the health of the population: such as banning the sale refined white sugar ...] or credit for basic research. Because these must be obtained through universities AND / OR independent researchers who are hardly solvent, except to increase the public deficits for the facs ....

However:
- since there is no intellectual property (we pride ourselves on patents and justice does not do its job and costs too much for a small independent laboratory, is not it dedicated ...)
- that both universities and independent researchers are turning to industry to find funding, so don't get angry with them, otherwise we are wiped off the map ...
- not to say worse, the banks have serious means of retaliation against those who would not want to join the ranks, I know something ...
- so we only look in the directions that go in the direction of the hair of these lobby ... and we forget the interest of consumers and public health!

We see, moreover, exactly the same phenomenon of denial in the atomic industry, or the spur of the EPFL in the matter in Switzerland, was very "at the orders" of Alpiq [electricity West Switzerland] and others (the electricity supplier lobby) during the Fukushima drama. It was moreover probably his very paratial point of view and clientelism - not to mention the very visible corruption which led to a resignation - which showed the danger to the Federal Council, and which favorably pushed for the decision of get out of nuclear power.

The money always the money.

If you deny these points - even as you claim them [elsewhere] with your idea of ​​developing your “drilling robots” - [everyone can consider] that:
- either you lose [gently] the memory (or the reason) with the age in which case you should take a step back and possibly consult before it gets worse ...
- either that you are of chronic bad faith and a manipulator [awkward] but of bad will or ... incurable.

In both cases, it is up to you to reverse this trend.
Last edited by Obamot the 04 / 04 / 12, 11: 28, 2 edited once.
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Janic
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by Janic » 04/04/12, 08:28

Chatelot hello
we still know a little that this virus often produces a disease

you reason by taking up the postulate (in doubt since there is no scientific unanimity) that this virus does exist!
But even so! Our body is the host of many viruses, microbes, "dormant" bacteria in the sense that they are not pathological except when certain circumstances allow it. Is it not better to identify these circumstances in order to modify them rather than to attack only the effect?
To take a picture (since the word parable displeases some) it is like an overflowing bathtub, it is useful to rush with the mops and buckets to mop up, but without turning off the tap it is a waste of time. However the current medical attitude is the mop, a lot of mops, until exhaustion (since the labs are the manufacturers of mops as by chance!).
What Obamot or I suggest (maybe nlc) is to go first to turn off the tap and then mop up the overflow. Because whether the cause is HIV or another schmilblick it is the cause that must be stopped as a priority, not the effect. We don't care if this overflow is water, pinard or petroleum, it's just that the damage is a little different.
We are all, more or less, victims of the Pasteurian conditioning which designates the microbe, virus, etc ... as the villain to be killed; in this way, each of us exempts each of us from the responsibility that is ours to maintain our organism in good defense conditions, of an effective reaction to an agent that becomes pathogenic. Accusing the virus of all ills, it reminds animals sick of the plague: "it's not me, it's the other!"
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by nlc » 04/04/12, 12:25

dedeleco stops your ceaseless and stupid pasted copying of which you always give back the same stupidities.

- The retrovirus called HIV has never been isolated from a patient, period. If you say the opposite, find me the scientific publication which refers to it and the name of the scientist who has succeeded. Watch the film house of number, you will see the embarrassment of scientists when asked.

- According to you, your neighbor died of AIDS without being HIV positive, because he died from one of the diseases called opportunistic in HIV positive people? So in this case HIV is not the cause of AIDS, right?

- What was your area of ​​research?

The negator is you, you don't play the game of forum discussion, you only contradict and copy / paste statements without scientific evidence.
I'm just looking for answers to the paradoxes and questions that arise the assumption official saying that a virus is responsible for AIDS.
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by Christophe » 04/04/12, 23:55

And yet an "experimental vaccine" exists ...

http://www.lemonde.fr/sante/article/201 ... 51302.html

The first large clinical trial with an AIDS vaccine, conducted in Thailand on more than 16 adults, has provided important information on the immune system responses, analysis published in the New England Journal on Wednesday April 000 of Medicine.

According to estimates revealed in 2009, 31,2% of participants who had been vaccinated with this product called RV144 were significantly less likely to be infected with HIV than the group treated with a placebo. Researchers examined blood samples from participants vaccinated with RV144 to analyze their immune responses. They discovered that different types of antibody responses have been linked to the degree of HIV infection.

"By studying those who became infected compared to participants who were not infected, we think we uncovered some very important clues as to how this vaccine worked," says Dr. Barton Haynes, professor of medicine at the university. Duke (North Carolina, USA), who conducted this analysis.

V1V2 ANTIBODIES

"Apparently, the protection in this clinical trial was mainly attributed to antibodies and all the antibodies studied were isolated from the RV144 vaccine," he says. "The different protective effects of these antibodies - induced by the vaccine - will be tested in primates to see if they can prevent HIV infection," adds the doctor.

The main discovery relates to the fact that antibodies specific to a particular area of ​​the envelope of the virus (HIV) called V1V2 are linked to lower infection rates in vaccines, specify these researchers.

Antibodies are proteins produced by the body to defend against infectious agents such as viruses and bacteria. According to the hypothesis put forward by these virologists, these antibodies bind to the V1V2 area of ​​the envelope of the virus, which would prevent infection by blocking its replication.
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by Obamot » 05/04/12, 01:24

Well if they managed to do that, they are really very strong. It means that they have arrived:
- to overcome the main problem, which is the runaway of RNA replication of the retro-virus, which would give it a high mutation rate.
- and therefore the protein should possibly be a polymerase (?)
- which should allow the body to push the limits of necrosis / or apoptosis, and that would be a major breakthrough that would probably have repercussions on other pathologies than AIDS.

All that is very good, but does not change the problem of the search for causes... That is to say treat the problem upstream: BEFORE even the infection of the organism. If not, what is it for? We put out the fire but we still haven't got our hands on the arsonist ...
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by Janic » 05/04/12, 09:01

christophe hello
And yet an "experimental vaccine" exists ...

If you followed the myth of vaccines as associations do on the international level (this is not a reproach, few are interested in this subject for many reasons already mentioned) all these false hopes serve to keep the tap on subsidies open.
However it is very possible that its components have an impact on the immune system to reactivate it and therefore active against the multiple causes of these IDs (A).
But experiences usually end in long-term failures when tests show (9 times out of 10, that's a way of speaking) worse side effects than the disease to be treated. Example: the papillomas virus!
Years ago the tuberculosis vaccine was supposed to be effective against cancer, then nothing. Today we discover anti cancer properties with aspirin, tomorrow it will be something else and cancer will continue its deadly, but subsidized, little way. But there, at least, no scientist denies the presence of carcinogenic cells, while for HIV! .... cuckoo: where are you hiding?

obamot hello
to put in anal du forum
revealing slip? : Cheesy: therefore to be corrected to avoid confusion among readers.
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by Obamot » 05/04/12, 09:50

Arf, I laughed well ... Lapsus manus for the arm of honor ... : Mrgreen: no I leave, I assume ...

For your comment: the discovery of a vaccine (if it is one ...) poses many more questions than it solves, indeed ... Among which:

What about the lost permeability of the cell membrane? Because if a (retro) virus enters it, it's good that the permeability has been lost! And keep it intact, "we know how to do it" in general ... since this is our "normal" state! A vaccine cannot succeed in restoring it. As you specify in your answer to Christophe, for that it is necessary to correct / restore metabolic reactions from top to bottom, it's very clear!

- If it was indeed a "vaccine": in what would the "culture broth"(Before it is deactivated / killed)? If it was not really one, how do they get this famous protein? There are already quite a few tracks for the rest ...

- What about the “shrink” track? Finally there it becomes interesting, because then what would be the real connection with immuno-depression? In other words, what would be the action of this pseudo-vaccine to overcome this "problem" linked to the human being and his understanding: condition sine qua non impracticable / impassable just by eating a protein? (lol) Reason why - although we know how to treat and cure certain cancers - therapeutics fails in certain subjects ... Alas.

- If the protein was not a polymerase, would it then be a "vaccine" of the type of influenza, which would have to be renewed each year because the retrovirus would have mutated? (If ever there is one ...)
- or on the contrary, would AIDS be the last known stage in the morbidity process targeted at cells of the immune system (in this precise case of degeneration other than cancer)? And then in this case, would the "vaccine" (see the protein) just be able to deactivate the virus / or morbidity mechanism for a while ... As you suggest ... All of this remains very unstable and not very durable ...

- And then we come to the search for the causes and the means / s to remedy them: would it be possible only by a healthy lifestyle and a food bowl and following the best practices, is this protein (or co-sister) naturally available in a healthy subject? Otherwise, how can we explain that in most cases of recovery which have been observed without resorting to triple therapy, the recovery of "good habits"(a non-deficient food bolus, the removal of synthetic chemical substances from the subject, etc.) makes the loss of resistance capacity to opportunistic diseases disappear (as long as the subject is" cooperative ")?

- If the lead was not the right one but the "vaccine" worked: would it have a therapeutic effect on opportunistic diseases and not directly on AIDS? ("Active against the multiple causes of these IDs (A)") Which would help to continue to blur the tracks ...

- For the chemical track, could pollutants come to take the place of the protein which is due to it, on our receptors (or of its sisters, naturally present on a healthy subject) preventing it from playing its role and somehow "blur the message"? Would the protein of the "vaccine", administered by another route, then restore the immune system by deactivating the retrovirus for a time? As it appears in your post ...

I have no answer / s to give categorically of course, although some of them may have to be included in the questions :P

PS: and I leave aside for the moment the trail of the benefits of popcorn [joke].
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by nlc » 05/04/12, 10:47

I reread several times, I understood nothing:


According to estimates revealed in 2009, 31,2% of participants who had been vaccinated with this product called RV144 were significantly less likely to be infected with HIV than the group treated with a placebo.


I'm not getting it already: 31.2% of vaccinated had significantly less risk to be infected with HIV. Heuuu, yeah !? What does this mean less risk of being infected, and how do they deduce that this is the case on 31.2% of vaccinated !? Less risks but risks all the same therefore !? What is the criterion to say that those there "have less risk" !? And what is the degree of risk, one in 2, 3, 10 !?

Researchers examined blood samples from participants vaccinated with RV144 to analyze their immune responses. They discovered that different types of antibody responses have been linked to the degree of HIV infection.


It is even less clear: They discovered that different types of antibody responses have been linked to the degree of HIV infection.
Does that mean that all the people vaccinated were HIV positive then since they are talking about the degree of HIV infection !? But how is this degree of infection measured, since no one has isolated the virus from a patient !?

"By studying those who became infected compared to participants who were not infected, we think we uncovered some very important clues as to how this vaccine worked," says Dr. Barton Haynes, professor of medicine at the university. Duke (North Carolina, USA), who conducted this analysis.


By studying those who have become infected! ?? But by what, the vaccine itself or by trying to infect them knowingly after the injection of the vaccine !? If this is the second case, then that means that 2 people agreed to be injected with a vaccine and then knowingly get infected with HIV !? I can not believe it ! And if this is the first case it means that the vaccine causes people to become HIV positive.
I really like the "We believe we have discovered very important clues". They" think "(so they are not sure), and the discovery would concern" clues "(so not the solution).
It is the artistic blur to show that we are moving forward but that we still have to dig and have money.


"Apparently, the protection in this clinical trial was mainly attributed to antibodies and all the antibodies studied were isolated from the RV144 vaccine," he says.


Apparently.....
So there the antibodies would have protected well. But since an HIV positive person has so-called antibodies to HIV (since they are the ones we are looking for if we do not find HIV), why would they be considered sick?

"The different protective effects of these antibodies - induced by the vaccine - will be tested in primates to see if they can prevent HIV infection," adds the doctor.


So there the antibodies induced by the vaccine do have a protective effect, and the aim would be to prevent HIV infection. HIV infection that can only be "detected" by the presence of suspected HIV-specific antibodies.
If I understand correctly, the vaccine must therefore induce antibodies, but which would not make HIV positive (otherwise how to explain to people that they have a good HIV positive), but would prevent infection with the supposed HIV and therefore the appearance of antibodies natural to HIV.


The main discovery relates to the fact that antibodies specific to a particular area of ​​the envelope of the virus (HIV) called V1V2 are linked to lower infection rates in vaccines, specify these researchers.


So that's it !! The goal is to develop antibodies against part of HIV, but which would not trigger seropositivity tests, since if you are HIV positive you are considered infected. So we can see the problem in which research is drowning : we consider ourselves sick by the presence of natural antibodies and not of the virus itself, it becomes very complicated to make a vaccine since it would make us HIV positive !! We therefore need a vaccine to induce antibodies to control HIV before the body develops its own natural antibodies, which would then be detected and lead to the conclusion of an HIV infection !!


Antibodies are proteins produced by the body to defend against infectious agents such as viruses and bacteria.


Ah we are happy to learn what we already knew, and as being HIV positive is to have antibodies, so it is proof that the body has defended itself well (since we never find the virus in HIV positive, even with AIDS).
But in the case of HIV, to have antibodies is to be considered infected, so you have to be able to help the body make different antibodies which also target HIV but without developing the natural antibodies which would cause HIV-positive topple over, nice challenge!

According to the hypothesis put forward by these virologists, these antibodies bind to the V1V2 area of ​​the envelope of the virus, which would prevent infection by blocking its replication.


And yes it must be blocked before the appearance of natural antibodies, otherwise we are considered sick.

The other solution could be preventive antiretrovirals for all !? : Mrgreen:
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by Christophe » 05/04/12, 10:57

nlc wrote:I reread several times, I did not understand


It is at least 2 then (it makes long as understand much more about this fact : Cheesy: )!
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