What is money?

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
Christophe
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Re: What is money?




by Christophe » 23/12/19, 16:48

sicetaitsimple wrote:"GDax is a great tool ... it seems to me not? I tested it for you ... So go for it! Go for it! It has a reactivity which extremely limits the risks ... after obviously you have to be" available "or plan buy and sell orders in advance ...
Start with 100 or 200 € ... have fun and hack during 1 week, reinvest your profits and in the worst case, it will cost you the price of a good restaurant ... With values ​​that make + 20% or - 20% a day is easy enough to win easily ... (today + 80% is exceptional anyway ... and all the better: the press will talk about it and it will attract capital and therefore stir up the market on the rise!)
I have absolutely nothing to gain by convincing you (except the satisfaction of helping to move towards a more democratic world less controlled by the banks ... er I believe not ??) ... but you yes!


It's from who?


It's from me and I assume:

a) Already it is an attempt at trollism ... Did you go looking for that in a discussion of 2 years? Just to make a little personal pic?
I defended bitcoins because they are a great tool to do without the banks that have self-granted anti-democratic power far too important currently ...

It was for the form, for the substance:

b) Speculating with money does not change anything the purpose that the money will be used to buy human time..that it goes through a cryptocurrency phase or changes anything. Besides, crypto is used to buy certain things (sometimes not very admirable) directly ...

So it was well tried but try again ... : Cheesy:
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Ahmed
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Re: What is money?




by Ahmed » 23/12/19, 17:39

I believe Christophe, that you did not understand well that the annuity is an exception which does not invalidate the rule: the question is to know where the money comes from. It is indeed about human time, insofar as it is presented in the norms of usual productivity (is that perhaps what you mean by "potential"?). The rent expresses the power to hold a natural wealth likely to incorporate human work later *: let's say that it is a nuance ...
What is interesting for our discussion is that the origin of the abstract value was only very late attributed to working time, probably by Ricardo, it will then be popularized by Marx, but their physiocratic predecessors attributed this power to agriculture, because plants and animals grow, in essence.

* If this is not the case, the natural wealth considered has no economic value (it is annoying this ambiguity of the word wealth ...).
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Re: What is money?




by Ahmed » 23/12/19, 18:24

It should also be noted that it is not surprising that this definition is so recent, since money, in previous societal systems does not at all stick with it, any more than in its current use and that it is by an anachronistic a posteriori reasoning that we can consider money as an improvement in barter ... No need for controversy to understand that the intensity of current trade cannot be content with barter (although it persists for large international business), but in a more restricted society with less trade intensity, then barter does not need monetary precision since it perfectly accommodates unequal trade, the remaining part of which (these terms not having much sense in this context) can be perpetually adjourned ...
By a whim of History, we can observe a somewhat similar phenomenon, with contemporary bankrupt economies which survive only by the artifice of a flow on a future growth supposed to compensate for the present incapacity ... : roll:
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Re: What is money?




by sicetaitsimple » 23/12/19, 20:20

Christophe wrote:a) Already it is an attempt at trollism ... Did you go looking for that in a discussion of 2 years? Just to make a little personal pic?


Pfff ... No trolling at all ... An attempt at humor that you took wrong, that's all. There is even one who smiled!

Let's say, and you know it well, that your "Bitcoin period" annoyed more than one on this forum, because not really "in line" with the general tenor of the ideas exchanged there.

Incident I hope closed.
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Re: What is money?




by Christophe » 24/12/19, 11:05

Moué Moué Moué !! : Cheesy:

It's good because it's Christmas that I'm going to believe it! : Mrgreen:
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Re: What is money?




by Christophe » 24/12/19, 11:11

Ahmed wrote:It should also be noted that it is not surprising that this definition is so recent, since money, in previous societal systems does not at all stick with it, any more than in its current use and that it is by an anachronistic a posteriori reasoning that we can consider money as an improvement in barter ...


It is true that historically, this definition is quite incompatible with slavery (again a valid exception?)... which has made whole nations rich, but that's not the debate here!

Although the slaves were bought between the owners ... they were not given "for free" by nature ... in the end we could just consider them as a tool of wealth creation, exactly as we invest today in mining or agricultural machinery. Sorry for this inhuman frankness!

On the other hand, there is a modern form of slavery! And they are more numerous than we think!

a) There are obviously the real modern slaves: those who work for nothing but who are (more or less) fed whitewashed (we don't change a recipe that works!) ... I saw a report recently on the slaves of the cocoa in ivory coast! Cocoa which obviously ends up in our mouths!

b) But there is more deception because when you work and you have nothing left after you have supported your basic needs (professional fees included) and that you have no "solid heritage" (a car that will no longer be worth anything in 10 years is not heritage) then you can be considered a modern slave ...
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Re: What is money?




by dede2002 » 24/12/19, 18:25

Silver, which refers to a metal, is now rather referenced to petroleum (petrodollar ...). It's the only thing that costs the same price anywhere in the world, unlike human labor ...

We can see that the ratio between GDP per capita and energy consumption per capita is fairly constant, in all "rich or poor" countries.

In the future, it may well be that kWh becomes the benchmark ... :?:
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Re: What is money?




by Ahmed » 24/12/19, 20:29

Concerning slavery and machines, these are interesting points.
First, slavery is entirely compatible with the general case; take the case of sugar cane in the West Indies: this culture does not yield anything in itself, except that it is the way to bring out the potential value of human labor. The reality is therefore not the production of sugar or rum, but the extraction of abstract value from slaves. This last peculiarity only plays in that the added value * extracted is maximum since the expense comes down to what Marx called the "reproduction of life", that is to say the provision of what is necessary to maintain the slave in working conditions. Subsequently and in an industrial context, this minimum could even be lowered appreciably below, due to competition from "free" workers (in the abusive sense that it gives. Exnihiloest).

* The idea is that the worker works to ensure sufficient gain for his own maintenance and that he then works for the remuneration of the capital of his employer.
The machine is no exception either to the general rule: the value it is likely to produce corresponds to the amount of human labor it required during its construction (with a nuance, because the one who owns a machine that the other companies did not enjoy a kind of temporary rent, until a new social norm of production is established because of its generalization).

Dede2002: money has been dematerialized for a long time, it is only a historical reference. Oil is the essential fluid of the economy and it is easily transportable, from where what you observe, but which does not contravene the equivalence money / human work ...
There is a more general equivalence between flow of energy and flow of money, since the level of productivity requires the use of machines that consume energy so that human labor can be exercised (it has no value if it falls short of production standards). This is one of the contradictions of this process: human labor tends to be more and more expelled from it, which makes the accumulation of capital more and more difficult, hence the massive recourse to chronic debt ...
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Re: What is money?




by Christophe » 25/12/19, 12:35

Ahmed wrote:Concerning slavery and machines, these are interesting points.


The machines are only an offset from the cost of human labor to (the human cost of) the manufacturers of these machines ...
The case of slavery is more complex for this debate ...

Today's article on modern quasi-slavery ... at the gates of Europe:

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Re: What is money?




by sen-no-sen » 25/12/19, 14:50

Money is a symbolic representation of energy.
The more money an individual has, the greater their capacity to act on the anthropotechnical environment. It is for this reason that despite all the evils that this term inspires, everyone always wants more.
In a society founded on the continual increase in energy dissipation, money ensures domination and imposes itself as an omnipotent force.
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